Water Icicle Extensions

[SamP]

I disagree strongly with your statement, Dan. See i'm new to caving and before Kieth Slatcher and Paul explained the importance of these formations to me I WOULD have walked all over them; not realising the damage I was doing. I'm sure i'm not the only "not too clued up beginner" making the threat to these deposits real and the need for a gate a must, until all the sciencey stuff has been completed.

Rich

To be honest depending on how its going to be rigged your not going to get alot of average people getting beyond to the new extensions in Water icicle. First of all the entrance... then getting up the aven at the end...


Is it going to be permanently rigged or a pull trough?

 

[paul]

I'm not sure about the necessity of this gate, but the tape definitely has its place.

Is the gate planned to be a permanent fixture, or is it only until the said scientists have taken their photos/samples/data. If so - what's the time scale on that. 

As Jenny Potts's posting said:

There is no intention to exclude cavers altogether and arrangements for visiting the new extensions will be announced very shortly.  Thanks for your patience.

The timescale depends on however long it takes to "to allow cave scientists to examine the new section while it is still, as far as possible, in pristine condition" - not a question I can answer.

 

[zippy]

And moreover, if a sensible access agreement is put in place and made public, so that genuine cavers can (given a little bit of effort) obtain a key/lead trip/whatever the arrangement turns out to be - what's the f**%$^* problem?

There are many places I visit that are gated.  I make the phonecall, get a ket, enjoy the trip, return the key - everyone's happy...

Z.

 

[paul]

First of all Owl hole is a place that the public can't get to with out a good set of ladders, i think it is very selfish putting a gate down there, (I am told useing money from DCA) only cavers who know what they are doing go there. Giants will have been vandalised by the public as anyone with a torch can just walk in.

I'd like to see a non-caver with a torch get to where the recent vandalism happened in Giants.

It would be easier for them to get into Owl Hole. You can climb up to the entrance - it is a little exposed but not difficult. Owl Hole and Giants are a separate issues. The topic under discussion here is Water Icicle Close Cavern.

Cavers know where to walk in a cave they are now aware that people do not want them walking on mud formation. I do not think that that tape is required to stop people walking on mud formations. I personally do not care about mud formations but not to the extent that i would deliberatly walk on them when someone would like to preserve them. I think Tape in caves look digusting and wish people would not use it. But a gate down there is a totally out of order it should just be free access to those who can go there. It's not just me who thinks this there are loads of cavers who would agree with me.

Cavers patently do NOT always "know" where they are causing damage. I have seen many, many examples of damage underground, accidental or intentional in places where only a caver could get to.

As has already been stated multiple times above: the gate is NOT PERMANENT. There will be free access once the investigations are complete and, no, I don't know how long that will take as I am a caver not a cave scientist. The cave is a SSSI and the gating was requested by Natural England, as has already been stated.

The taping is not just for mud formations, In many places the whole of the floor has calcite formations and it would be nice if everyone kept to a single path rather than trash the lot: hence the taping.

I don't like tapes either. But they are infinitely better than trashed caves and formations, which I like a LOT less.

 

[paul]

To be honest depending on how its going to be rigged your not going to get alot of average people getting beyond to the new extensions in Water icicle. First of all the entrance... then getting up the aven at the end...

Is it going to be permanently rigged or a pull trough?

The intention is to install a fixed ladder. Because of the layout it would be awkward to arrange a SRT option.

 

[AndyF]

I've not seen the extensions but if it needs protecting that sounds fine. Comments like this are the reason its appropriate I guess..

I do not think that that tape is required to stop people walking on mud formations. I personally do not care about mud formations

What closure does that gate have/intend to have? If its a spanner that would seem a bit pointless since you need a spanner to open the lid of the shaft, so by definition every group would have one already. 

 

[paul]

I've not seen the extensions but if it needs protecting that sounds fine. Comments like this are the reason its appropriate I guess..

I do not think that that tape is required to stop people walking on mud formations. I personally do not care about mud formations

What closure does that gate have/intend to have? If its a spanner that would seem a bit pointless since you need a spanner to open the lid of the shaft, so by definition every group would have one already. 

Exactly. It's a lock.

 

[zomjon]

nope Andy, it has a nice head (technical language!) on it so that you can turn by hand

 

[Rob]

Paul, thanks for the details. It's much easier to understand and potentially agree with a dubious descision if the reasons are clearly explained.

On a slightly seperate issue, and i've got to say first that I don't know people in Natural England, but i'm sure they are very much swayed by the thoughts and opinions of the experienced cavers around them. Therefore "requested by Natural England" is not enough of an excuse. However, now they are keen on one, now't anyone of us can do, i suppose. Apart from help the cave scientists (who ever they are!) to get on with the necessary work as quickly as possible.

 

[paul]

nope Andy, it has a nice head (technical language!) on it so that you can turn by hand

That being the entrance shaft lid of course.

 

[paul]

On a slightly seperate issue, and i've got to say first that I don't know people in Natural England, but i'm sure they are very much swayed by the thoughts and opinions of the experienced cavers around them. Therefore "requested by Natural England" is not enough of an excuse.

It is neither an excuse nor dodgy dealings. It's just part of the normal process as exemplified by the Peak SSSI Cave Monitoring project - see www.peakcavemonitoring.org.uk/ for more info. This is an example of Natual England and cavers working together, not in opposition, for the same goal: attempting to conserve the underground trasures that we are lucky to have.

The difference is that the Monitoring for the new bits of Water Icicle can be started from initial discovery rather than after the damage is done as with other sites which are monitored across the Peak. Hence the request to limit visits to the new parts until the initial monitoring/investigations are carried out.

After the breakthrough, we politely requested cavers to be patient and resist the temptation to visit the new discoveries until conservation measures were complete - not to mention the ongoing digs which were and are still in progress. Some cavers decided to ignore the request and go ahead anyway. Even to the extent of trying to push one of the digs. So, it's not surprising that a gate was considered.

However, now they are keen on one, now't anyone of us can do, i suppose. Apart from help the cave scientists (who ever they are!) to get on with the necessary work as quickly as possible.

Exactly. And it's already in hand so hopefully, will soon be completed.

 

[spikey]

Playing Devil's Advocate............

How did Natural England become aware of the delicacy  / scientific possibiltes of the extended part of the cave? Is it not possible they were influenced by the opinions of the diggers, as I fail to see how they would have known about the extensions, let alone what they contained, without being directly informed. Therefore ,it would seem they could not have "requested" the gate without input from the diggers. I understood Rob's post to be looking for clarification on this point.

Anyhow,
I personally am apathetic towards the use of gates, but I find it very sad that cavers who would need a certain level of technical expertise to even reach the initial dig are (at present at least) considered too heavy-footed to see the results of the hard work of the Orpheus diggers without supervision or permission. I suppose as mentioned earlier, you only have to look at the recent Giants issues for the reasons.

 

[whitelackington]

This smacks of Draenen

 

[Goydenman]

.....Full access will be announced as soon as conservation work and a safe means of entry are completed. .........Thanks for your patience
The digging team

Slow down folk. I believe them when they say 'Full access will be announced' after they have completed their work and I take that to mean not gated. It is good this work is being done and also important full access is available after to ensure conservation and exploration needs are looked after. The caving community can not afford a repeat of the 'Draenan saga' in another area.

 

[JAM]

I see it like this; if it wasn't for the massive effort and personal time put in by the diggers then this extension wouldn't be open. I'd also like to point out that if the diggers hadn't reported the break through then non of us would be any the wiser of the extensions existence. Now i also see it that the diggers asked everyone for their patients whilst the necessaries had to be completed. Some didn't want to play ball and now a locked gate is the result. I see that you have the impatient to blame for this extreme action. Just keep in mind that the gate is there for the greater good and as Paul has said, it ain't permanent.

Rich

 

[paul]

Playing Devil's Advocate............

How did Natural England become aware of the delicacy  / scientific possibiltes of the extended part of the cave? Is it not possible they were influenced by the opinions of the diggers, as I fail to see how they would have known about the extensions, let alone what they contained, without being directly informed. Therefore ,it would seem they could not have "requested" the gate without input from the diggers. I understood Rob's post to be looking for clarification on this point.

As I mentioned in a previous posting, Water Icicle Close Cavern is a SSSI. As part of the Peak Cave Monitoring Scheme (and my club participate in this scheme - see www.peakcavemonitoring.org.uk/) of course Natural England would become involved. This is a partnership between cavers and Natural England to achieve the same aims: to conserve not to prevent access.

The gate is a temporary measure.

I have no idea why I have to keep repeating myself...

 

[paul]

This smacks of Draenen

Hardly. Please explain yourself.

 

[Peter Burgess]

In terms you might understand, that means put up or shut up.

 

[paul]

In terms you might understand, that means put up or shut up.

I looks like he opted for the latter option.

 

[NOZ]

After the breakthrough, we politely requested cavers to be patient and resist the temptation to visit the new discoveries until conservation measures were complete - not to mention the ongoing digs which were and are still in progress. Some cavers decided to ignore the request and go ahead anyway. Even to the extent of trying to push one of the digs. So, it's not surprising that a gate was considered.

While I wholeheartedly agree with the gating of the extensions for conservation purposes and also am shocked at the sheer rudeness of cavers pushing others' digs without permission.
To mention gating in the same paragraph as; preventing cavers pushing digs - is getting very close to a Mendip mentality.