Water Icicle Extensions
- Thread starter Roo
- Start date
paul
Moderator
NOZ said:
Let's just keep on topic. We are talking about one section of one cave in Derbyshire and nowhere else.
The gate was installed temporarily for the reasons already given - NOT to keep pirates out.
I pointed out that some cavers had decided to try and push an ongoing dig, which is just accepted as wrong by most cavers. If some were willing to do that sort of thing, then how likely would polite requests to avoid the extensions until conservation measures and scientific investigations were complete be complied with?
Cave_Troll
Active member
because they didn't know what was there until they found it?
Peter Burgess
New member
Firstly, I find it most disappointing that there is so much negativity in this thread.
Secondly, I would like to congratulate the diggers on their discovery and applaud not just their efforts to provide an opportunity for the new passage to be studied properly, but also their undertaking not to restrict access unnecessarily in the longer term.
Secondly, I would like to congratulate the diggers on their discovery and applaud not just their efforts to provide an opportunity for the new passage to be studied properly, but also their undertaking not to restrict access unnecessarily in the longer term.
Peter Burgess
New member
Man of Bush speaks the truth.
paul
Moderator
NigR said:
There are other examples in Derbyshire. Some gates are padlocked and some require a spanner. Luckily there are only a few.
Some history. The site of the initial breakthrough is gained via a climb up the front of a very large square boulder, across the top and then down the other side. This is a tricky climb with a bad landing so a section of aluminium builders ladder was used to gain access while digging.
After the breakthrough last Xmas and more importantly its announcement in Descent and elsewhere, it was decided to not leave the ladder in situ as we expected curious cavers to visit the site and the ladder wasn't attached permanently nor resting on an ideal footing. So after each digging trip we would remove the ladder from the climb and lock it to some scaffolding with a chain and padlock nearby. The announcement included a polite request to refrain from entering the breakthrough point until conservation measures were completed and also pointed out that it was an ongoing dig.
The fact that a request was made to avoid the discovery and that it seemed protected by a dodgy climb seemed sufficient to protect the new sections until conservation measures were taken.
In the meantime some cavers had managed the dodgy climb without the ladder and entered the dig. Arriving at the site a couple of weekends later we found someone had not only released the lock used to secure the ladder, they had also taken it. At least they replaced the ladder where it had been left and not at the climb up.
So, a polite request to wait until conservation measures were complete before entering the new parts were ignored by some.
Recently it was decided to install a fixed ladder to assist cavers who wish to get into the new sections in the near future. Of course this would make it even more likely that the request to wait until conservation and investigation measures were complete to be ignored as there would now be an easy way to access the breakthrough point.
Of course all this has taken some time (not helped that the two main diggers do not live in Derbyshire and cannot go digging every weekend) and with an easy way to access the new sections, it was decided a temporary gate was needed.
NigR said:
Cave_Troll said:
Just to clarify, 'earlier' is meant in relation to the date of the initial breakthrough. Surely, if the discovery is such that it merits detailed scientific study it should have been gated as soon as it was found, not five months later?
Also, if the discovery is of such scientific significance, might it not have been better to initiate (and hopefully complete) a programme of research prior to announcing it in public?
Anyway, thanks to Paul for taking the time to make a more detailed explanation. Like most gates (no matter which caving area they are in) it would appear that the purpose of this one is to keep people out (for whatever reason). It will be interesting to see how 'temporary' this particular gate proves to be.
As someone who regularly descends Water Icicle and loves the passages for photographic trips, I was very happy to read that WI extensions would soon have access. Prior to the initial announcement of the breakthrough I had climbed up the ladder on a number of occasions and dropped down the scaffolded dig. The announcement did both excite and disappoint me at the initial mention of the gate (And the timing with 200ms of rope up for grabs!), but Paul's explanation is very clear and reassuring. Bringing the situations of S Wales and the Mendips into this is just not helpful and totally wrong. I am so pleased to know that within two miles of my front door I can access over 20 ungated caves/mines and I really appreciate that.
Peter Burgess
New member
Only most gates? So the few remaining might be designed to keep people in?graham said:NigR said:
finster
New member
"I am so pleased to know that within two miles of my front door I can access over 20 ungated caves/mines and I really appreciate that."
I couldn't agree with zomjon more, having just moved to Derbyshire, after doing a fair bit of regular caving on the mendis its great to cave in an area where there are so many un gated caves, and most of the ones that are gated are still accessable with a derbyshire key (adjustable spanner). Very lucky indeed I now enjoy mid week caving!
I couldn't agree with zomjon more, having just moved to Derbyshire, after doing a fair bit of regular caving on the mendis its great to cave in an area where there are so many un gated caves, and most of the ones that are gated are still accessable with a derbyshire key (adjustable spanner). Very lucky indeed I now enjoy mid week caving!
DAN
New member
Right oh people seem most of you dont get it. You all go on about the formations and how beautiful they are but when the place looks like its had a bin of red white tape eveywhere that you are trying have an enjoyable caving in that ruins it for me, its like being at work! I supose that is somthing i may have to Live with, but a gate in there at that point in the cave is totally pointless in my opinion.
I respect the work that has gone in to this find and that people need a little time to do some work to a choke or some scientific study. But is a gate down there is a total waste of time and cavers money. I presume everything will taped forming a path when cavers are aloud in so the gate will be pointless! I would not mind had it been payed for out of your own pocket but DCA money i have been led believe has been used. Do the rest of the caving world want to pay for your lid when there are things that need a lid to keep live stock out and this already has a lid. I know full well the slateing i am going get by speaking my mind but this is my opinion and i am sticking to it. Especially when one of the main men involved with the funding was one of the people who used to remove them as part of his hobby! Now regardless of what i think a lid will appear. I am sure that will just have to be part of what happens when people find new cave and become protective of there new find.
Dan
I respect the work that has gone in to this find and that people need a little time to do some work to a choke or some scientific study. But is a gate down there is a total waste of time and cavers money. I presume everything will taped forming a path when cavers are aloud in so the gate will be pointless! I would not mind had it been payed for out of your own pocket but DCA money i have been led believe has been used. Do the rest of the caving world want to pay for your lid when there are things that need a lid to keep live stock out and this already has a lid. I know full well the slateing i am going get by speaking my mind but this is my opinion and i am sticking to it. Especially when one of the main men involved with the funding was one of the people who used to remove them as part of his hobby! Now regardless of what i think a lid will appear. I am sure that will just have to be part of what happens when people find new cave and become protective of there new find.
Dan
big-palooka
Member
Does Dan really understand the uniqueness of the find.
Virgin territory 350 million years old. Never seen. Never experienced before.
I would find that quite humbling really.
I see that I cannot find a "smiley" to express this. Do cavers have no humility?
Paul C
Virgin territory 350 million years old. Never seen. Never experienced before.
I would find that quite humbling really.
I see that I cannot find a "smiley" to express this. Do cavers have no humility?
Paul C
John B
New member
Those who object to the gate on the Water Icicle Extension ought to have found Gimli's Dream in Carlswark in 1973. I could have cried when I saw what unrestricted access had done to it. It was mindless and stupid, and I would be among the first to gate a piece of pristine cave now.
