Water Icicle Extensions

[Les W]

Virgin territory 350 million years old. Never seen. Never experienced before.

Whilst it is old, I'm pretty sure its not that old. 350 million years ago the rock was part of a coral reef at the bottom of a warm shallow sea. The caves are much younger than the rock, I suspect (but cannot prove) that they are nearer to 1 million years old (still quite old though). 

 

[Salty]

whilst I am a supporter of underground conservation, I dont personally agree with installation of a gate in this instance - no matter how temporary.

 

[Salty]

Secondly, if the gate really has been installed purely on conservation and scientific grounds then why was it not done much earlier?

because they didn't know what was there until they found it?

Just to clarify, 'earlier' is meant in relation to the date of the initial breakthrough. Surely, if the discovery is such that it merits detailed scientific study it should have been gated as soon as it was found, not five months later?

Also, if the discovery is of such scientific significance, might it not have been better to initiate (and hopefully complete) a programme of research prior to announcing it in public?

Anyway, thanks to Paul for taking the time to make a more detailed explanation. Like most gates (no matter which caving area they are in) it would appear that the purpose of this one is to keep people out (for whatever reason). It will be interesting to see how 'temporary' this particular gate proves to be.

NigR - Think you made some excellent points there.

 

[Northern caver]

Taping - yes, i agree with. Gating & padlocking a find is bollocks and smacks of selfishness in my opinion.

 

[AndyF]

Just curious for those opposed to a gate on this bit of cave just how they would suggest it is protected 
Appeals to cavers better nature to stay away for a while have not worked.... what alternatives are there (other than "no protection")

The other passages down there are mud covered and trampled, the new extension would go the same way. There is little protected cave in Derbyshire, I'm at ease with a cul-de-sac pretty passage being kept off limits for the foreseeabe future.

 

[paul]

Perhaps it is worth repeating the original posting about the gate as some appear either to have not read it or are just ignoring it, as it is now a few pages back in this thread:

THE NEW EXTENSIONS AT WATER ICICLE CLOSE CAVERN

At the request of Natural England, DCA has agreed that a gate should be placed on the new extensions to Water Icicle Close Cavern, which is part of a Scheduled Site of Scientific Interest (SSSI).  This is to ensure the protection of the very fragile floor deposits, which were carefully taped by the original explorers when they were first found, and to allow cave scientists to examine the new section while it is still, as far as possible, in pristine condition.

Note that the gate has been installed in the crawl in the breakthrough area leading to the new extensions - there is no restriction whatsoever to anyone visiting the main section of the cave which has been known for many years.  Thanks are due to Orpheus members who have constructed and installed the gate, which DCA will fund.

There is no intention to exclude cavers altogether and arrangements for visiting the new extensions will be announced very shortly.  Thanks for your patience.

Jenny Potts,
DCA Secretary

 

[Northern caver]

If we want to keep caves in pristine condition then maybe we shouldn't be in there in the first place and caving should be completely de-classified as a sport. As soon as diggers set foot in un-chartered territory then that environment is technically being contaminated and destroyed, so what's the point in gating? Tape up the pretties, take photos record your findings and move on to your next dig!

 

[big-palooka]

Virgin territory 350 million years old. Never seen. Never experienced before.

Whilst it is old, I'm pretty sure its not that old. 350 million years ago the rock was part of a coral reef at the bottom of a warm shallow sea. The caves are much younger than the rock, I suspect (but cannot prove) that they are nearer to 1 million years old (still quite old though). 

Yes yes -  Lagoonal or reef limestone about 350 million years old - cave passage not - guess I was stretching a point.

Principle's the same. 

It's been waiting a long time for us to discover it - we can afford to be patient a little longer to see it.

 

[Peter Burgess]

There are two sides to the coin - if no protection is to be offered to delicate features in caves then all digging anywhere should be banned.

 

[Peter Burgess]

If we want to keep caves in pristine condition then maybe we shouldn't be in there in the first place and caving should be completely de-classified as a sport. As soon as diggers set foot in un-chartered territory then that environment is technically being contaminated and destroyed, so what's the point in gating? Tape up the pretties, take photos record your findings and move on to your next dig!

As soon as you put on a pair of underpants you know you are going to have to change them one day. So what's the point of wiping your arse? Oh, I forgot, people living north of Birmingham don't wear underpants.

 

[DAN]

Maybe if we put red and white around our boots then we can never be on the outside of a barrier. Burgess shut up!

Dan

 

[graham]

Maybe if we put red and white around our boots then we can never be on the outside of a barrier. Burgess shut up!

Dan

Deep philosophy from Dan here, but still no answer to the question:

So, Dan, would you prefer if cavers did not care about any new finds that they might make?

 

[DAN]

Listen graham i do care. I have expressed my thoughts in what i have wrote i am sure it is prety clear. I have found plenty of cave myself and have restricted access to any of it. Where are you from Graham?

Dan

 

[graham]

Listen graham i do care. I have expressed my thoughts in what i have wrote i am sure it is prety clear. I have found plenty of cave myself and have restricted access to any of it. Where are you from Graham?

Dan

Where am I from? Somewhere that speaks English. I am afraid that the grammatical errors in your post obscure its meaning somewhat. Do you actually mean:

I have found plenty of cave myself and have not restricted access to any of it.

or

I have found plenty of cave myself and have restricted access to some or all of it.

Either way, how does that sentence answer my question about caring for or even caring about such finds?

 

[graham]

Dan

To take the Derbyshire example given above. if you were one of the discoverers of the Water Icicle extensions, how would you go about ensuring that, in 30 years time they do not look like Gimli's Dream does now?

 

[DAN]

I would'nt bother. When i find a bit of cave, i want everyone that would like to go there to enjoy it as much as i have Maybe i would put a sign on the entrance to ask people to be mindful of where they step. Nobody owns a cave (they may think they do) the idea is EVERYONE can enjoy it.

Dan

 

[Peter Burgess]

Deep philosophy from Dan here, but still no answer to the question:

Not as deep as mine, Graham.....

And Dan, I agree with a fair amount of what you have said regarding unsightly tape. But I think that's about as far as it goes.

 

[Northern caver]

If we want to keep caves in pristine condition then maybe we shouldn't be in there in the first place and caving should be completely de-classified as a sport. As soon as diggers set foot in un-chartered territory then that environment is technically being contaminated and destroyed, so what's the point in gating? Tape up the pretties, take photos record your findings and move on to your next dig!

As soon as you put on a pair of underpants you know you are going to have to change them one day. So what's the point of wiping your arse? Oh, I forgot, people living north of Birmingham don't wear underpants.

lmao, just goes toprove that some of the resident prats on here do have a sense of humour. It took him all night but, it came off in the end!

 

[owd git]

good work thank you [from a prospective visitor to the new bit! ) don't  let the b8stards grind ya down!
O. G.

 

[graham]

I wouldn't bother. When i find a bit of cave, i want everyone that would like to go there to enjoy it as much as i have Maybe i would put a sign on the entrance to ask people to be mindful of where they step. Nobody owns a cave (they may think they do) the idea is EVERYONE can enjoy it.

Dan

Leaving aside from the fact that in English law all caves are actually and in fact owned by somebody, we now have the situation that, compared with 1973 nobody can enjoy Gimli's Dream

oh well.