What happened in Manchester Hole yesterday?

[MSD]

it is mentioned in northern caves as a specific risk (Reservoir) but I was there three weeks ago and the water was about 12ft below the lip of the arches and I considered that to mean there was no risk of wind induced overflow, perhaps I was mistaken, I honestly couldn't imagine the water flowing over the top then but it obviously has.

The resevoir is of course mentioned in Northern Caves, but the main risk which is highlighted is the danger of overflow, i.e. when the sluice is opened. You are advised to ring the water authority and check on this point. But the risk caused by wind developing large waves and spilling over is not mentioned at all. Like I said, this is not a risk I would have thought of myself. It's obvious after the event, but so are many causes of accidents.

You can imagine that if the cave suddenly flooded unexpectedly, there would necessarily be a very hasty emergency exit. In the confusion which followed, somebody got seperated from the party. One could possibly criticise the leader for not noticing this quickly enough, but without actually being there is is vary hard to make a judgement. One could just as well say that the leader managed to save the lives of the nine that escaped through prompt action in the face of a sudden life-threatening situation and wonder whether several people might have died if the exit hadn't been very hasty.

One thing I wonder about is how good the clothing was of the youngsters and whether a survival bag should be issued to every participant on such trips (together with some brief instructions - "if you become separated from the rest of us and are cold, get into the survival bag and wait"). That would be a rather small cost, but might have made the difference in this case. What is the normal policy regarding this issue?

Mark

 

[Nanook]

My deepest sympathy's to the family and everybody involved.

No matter what the out come from media or people in high places, what we must all remember, is that in any outdoor activity you can't guard against nature.. Accidents will happen.

 

[graham]

No matter what the out come from media or people in high places, what we must all remember, is that in any outdoor activity you can't guard against nature.. Accidents will happen.

Accidents of nature do indeed happen, however, how they are dealt with is no accident. Such things can and should be planned for. The questions that need to be asked is whether that planning was adequate and whether the plan was properly carried out.

I am not saying it was not, I am simply saying that we should no more jump to conclusions than should the media.

 

[bubba]

Just a general note: Please can we refrain from jumping to any conclusions regarding this incident and passing judgement on the actions of those involved until the full facts of the matter are known. "Remember Mexico" as somebody as already said above...

RIP Joseph Lister And my heart goes out to the family of the poor lad who died in this unfortunate incident, and everyone else involved.

 

[AndyF]

It is difficult underground for a leaders(s) to keep track of everyone in a party, especially when the party all have the some clothing on.

When I took younger novice groups down, we got everyone in the party to team up with a buddy, and they were told to raise the alarm if they got seperated from their buddy. It wasn't foolproof, and led to false alarms (rapidly resolved), but it did instill a sense of everyone watching for everyone else.

 

[cap n chris]

When I took younger novice groups down, we got everyone in the party to team up with a buddy, and they were told to raise the alarm if they got seperated from their buddy

I agree; it's a good idea.

...Although sometimes I've found it better to use the term "Neighbour" rather than "Buddy"; this is because "buddy" equates to "friend" and no-one wants to team up as a "friend" to Billy-no-Mates - also it is useful when you've got a group of strangers, none of whom know each other.

 

[darkplaces]

I've found it better to use the term "Neighbour" rather than "Buddy"; this is because "buddy" equates to "friend" and no-one wants to team up as a "friend" to Billy-no-Mates - also it is useful when you've got a group of strangers, none of whom know each other.

Pish Tosh! Neighbour! You been infected with that correctness rubbish. In my view if your going underground you rely on the people around you which means making an instant buddy working together with the goal of making sure the other is safe. Buddys look out for each other, neigbours watch the milk pile up by the front door.

The buddy system works. Excillient idea AndyF, like it
Billy-no-mates? Nothing like a bit of danger to bring people together.
Maybe numbers could be spraypainted on the little treasures?
Survial bags are a must when a group enters a known 'wet' cave carried as a group. Issued to individuals, personal choice I'd say, if your suddenly alone something has already gone wrong.

 

[graham]

Yesterday one of his closest friends, Lee Murphy, 14, said that Joseph vanished after making sure the other children got out of the rising waters before he did.

Lee said he was not on the trip to Bewerley Park Outdoor Educational Centre near Pateley Bridge, North Yorks, but said that children who were there had spoken about the incident.

Lee said: "The whole school is in total shock and everybody is talking about Joe. It appears that he was down in the cave when the water started to rise suddenly. In order to get out they had to swim under [a low piece of rock] and out the other side.

"I've heard that there were only a couple of them left and Joe told them to go first. A girl on the trip who went just in front of Joe said she could feel him grabbing her from behind as she went through."

Daily Telegraph

This report is, obviously, not first hand. If, however, it is correct, it begs a lot of questions.

 

[darkplaces]

Speculation of course but that sounds like a frantic situation were I can imagine the leader was pushing the group fast though the cave.

Question: If the water is rising and you need to move fast and navigate do you slow up waiting for the slowest or push hard to get the majority of people out, regardless if its kids or adults?

Again if its true; why wasnt an adult last?

 

[cap n chris]

Darkplaces wrote:

Maybe when they do these features they should pull out some stats relating to accidents per year in caving when compared to driving, walking, looking after pets.

Only by comparing things can the general public understand the scale of risk.

Currently the less informed public just see caving, death tombe, freezing, alone, crawl all lumped together and dont have a clue about the many trips were nothing much really happens.

and also wrote:

In my view if your going underground you rely on the people around you which means making an instant buddy working together with the goal of making sure the other is safe... Nothing like a bit of danger to bring people together

I'm trying to work out whether Darkplaces thinks caving is safe or dangerous. Can anyone help?

 

[Jagman]

Seems to me like he is comparing perceived danger to real risks Cap'n Chris
Fairly obvious I thought :?

 

[diggerdog adam]

Just hang on Guys, theres no point in all this speculation why is every one so hell bent on knowing the gory deatails ?

I think our time would be a lot more well spent if all the clubs etc were to write letters of support to the school and center, after all this incident is going to be so high profile case

And the big issuse nodoubt will be, should young groups go under ground? just think about it, its a sport that we all love and enjoy this age group of people are our next generation of clubs.

Lets turn the tables, lets say its your family and you stumble across this site with nothing more than speciualtion on the posts. What light would that portray to our sport?

 

[darkplaces]

Like comparing skydiving with hill walking;

At first most will say skydiving is more dangerous then hill walking, however you will find more people die on the hills then impacting the ground.

Why is this you all ask...

Skydiving has obvious risks so procedures and training reduce these risks.

Hill walking - you can do that in flipflops and a T-shirt cant you?

Well if thats how you view hill walking you dont have a basic understanding of the risks and will die alone, cold and wet on a hill.

My idea of comparing one sport for another has flaws but people like to put things in boxes and arrange these boxes in order of say 'danger factor'. So in general, following the normal procedures and using the usual equipment it would help the general public (and me) to know if say rugby players have more injurys then cavers using some clever percentage to adjust for actual differing numbers of people in each sport..

Sorry I have gone way off topic.

 

[darkplaces]

Speculation is all we have, arnt we just trying to think up what might have happened and decide collectivly (maybe to ourselfs) what we would or should do in that situation.

You never know I might be in exactly the same situation in 2 months time, remember this discussion and think of poor Joe and in a spilt second demand a head cound and check who was at the rear.

Its right to want to learn. People should be happy we are discussing this rather then just saying 'someones cocked up, it will never happen to me!'

It is of the most importance that the young are introduced to this type of sport, educated in how its organised (clubs) kit to use, how to act. Its not just tangable things though, confidence, a leader may fruit, social skills, physical activity, thinking in 3D and navigating in 3D, might be something that transfer to flying.

I do bang on dont I :roll:

 

[AndyF]

I think our time would be a lot more well spent if all the clubs etc were to write letters of support to the school and center, after all this incident is going to be so high profile case

That's a nice idea, but could easily be seized upon as being "closing ranks". I think we should just see what comes out...

 

[graham]

Just hang on Guys, theres no point in all this speculation why is every one so hell bent on knowing the gory deatails ?

I think our time would be a lot more well spent if all the clubs etc were to write letters of support to the school and center, after all this incident is going to be so high profile case

I agree with Andy. Such action would be prejudging the case just as much as out of hand condemnation.

There are still a lot of questions that need to be asked.

 

[SamT]

Guys - UKc agree with Adam.

There are questions to be asked, but it's not really our place to be asking them here.

Its futile to discuss the finer details in this thread since I doubt anyone closely involved will be posting up on this forum, I imagine they will be saving any discussion for the right time and place which will arrive in due course.

The thread started because someone had seen a load of CRO activity and wondered what had happened. Well now we know what it was about, the finer details can be left to the appropriate authorities.

Whilst it's natural for cavers to want to know how this tragedy occurred, please spare a thought for those involved who could well end up reading this.

UKc would like to end any speculative discussion on this forum and will be forced to lock/delete the thread/posts if it continues. (Not something we do lightly).

We are happy for UKc to be a medium for the caving community to pass on condolences and messages of support to all involved.

I will start a new thread to that end.

 

[Wolfart]

Unfortunatly this is a debate that is going to go on for a long time, i think it is time we left it and think of the ones who are suffering the loss. We all have our should and should not do's in caving wether it be with clubs or outdoor activities centres .PLEASE LETS HAVE SOME DECOREM and send our thoughts to those who grieve.

 

[cap n chris]

PLEASE LETS HAVE SOME DECOREM and send our thoughts to those who grieve.

Wise words. Totally agree. JL RIP.

 

[Deeply Mendippy]

Don't want to bring back this sad topic but there may be some lessons here for the future.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/north_yorkshire/7078540.stm