woollydigger
New member
http://youtu.be/m7AtK2_Ocm4 would this work for draining sumps/ ducks 
will this work
- Thread starter woollydigger
- Start date
Maj
Active member
Not sure that it will.
A ram pump only pumps a small proportion of the same water that has dropped a short distance, up to a greater height.
So you could only pump less than is entering the sump.
You would need to use the kinetic energy of falling water that is not entering the sump to operate a pump to pump the sump out.
If that makes any sense?
Maj
A ram pump only pumps a small proportion of the same water that has dropped a short distance, up to a greater height.
So you could only pump less than is entering the sump.
You would need to use the kinetic energy of falling water that is not entering the sump to operate a pump to pump the sump out.
If that makes any sense?
Maj
woollydigger
New member
the way i was thinking was bailing the water from the "sump" into a bucket which is fitted to the ram to make it work because the sump water is standing water and not running water
Maj
Active member
Assuming no losses in the system.
If you bailed 10 buckets of water up to say a height of 1 metre, this would pump 1 bucket of water up 10 metres. The balance of 9 buckets that you bailed would end up back where they started from, in the sump.
This 10 Percent Perpetual Motion Ram Pump this is a good example of what I think you are suggesting.
The yellow bucket would represent the sump. The white tank would be where you bail to. The hose pipe would send the pumped percentage of water up to where it could flow away from the sump.
Maj.
If you bailed 10 buckets of water up to say a height of 1 metre, this would pump 1 bucket of water up 10 metres. The balance of 9 buckets that you bailed would end up back where they started from, in the sump.
This 10 Percent Perpetual Motion Ram Pump this is a good example of what I think you are suggesting.
The yellow bucket would represent the sump. The white tank would be where you bail to. The hose pipe would send the pumped percentage of water up to where it could flow away from the sump.
Maj.
woollydigger
New member
i've got about a meter in height to pump the water and about 10 ish meters to pump it away
SamT
Moderator
If your bailing 9 buckets, to empty the sump by 1 bucket I'm thinking you are going to be there all blinking day (and some).
Ram pumps are brilliant in limited situations, i.e. pumping water from a stream up to a header tank for a rural property or some such, where it can be left, 24/7 to do its thing, but it sounds like madness, bailing so much for such limited time, you'd be better off just getting a small team and manually bailing it......or forget that...
Buy off Ebay, or borrow, a Whale Gusher 30, or similar and you'll have the sump open in no time.
Or an Ireby sump buster if room can be found.
Ram pumps are brilliant in limited situations, i.e. pumping water from a stream up to a header tank for a rural property or some such, where it can be left, 24/7 to do its thing, but it sounds like madness, bailing so much for such limited time, you'd be better off just getting a small team and manually bailing it......or forget that...
Buy off Ebay, or borrow, a Whale Gusher 30, or similar and you'll have the sump open in no time.
Or an Ireby sump buster if room can be found.
martinm
New member
SamT said:
Found the Whale Gushers on eBay. Is there a description of the Ireby sump buster anywhere Sam? I'm sure there's been a thread about it on here before, but a search doesn't seem to find it.
I want to open the upstream sump in Ladyside Pot in the Manifold, so 'dry' cavers can get into it for a while and have a good look around. (Been waiting for a decent dry summer for some years now though.
) We've got a genny, 100m of cable and a submersible pump which will do it, but it's obviously a PITA to drag all that cable through the cave.... (BTW, it's a big sump.)TIA, Mel.
SamT
Moderator
check them out here -
http://www.whalepumps.com/marine/product-application-items.aspx?FriendlyID=Manual-bilge-pumps&Category_ID=10009&view=page&pageno=2
2nd hand Gusher 30's (117l per min) do come up on Ebay occasionally - you have to bide your time, and they are not cheap new - ~?270.
I got mine for ?50 but had to buy a service kit for it as the diaphrams were missing.
The MK5 might be an option (75l per min)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Whale-bilge-waste-water-transfer-pump-Mk5-Universal-Pump-HAND-BILGE-WATER-PUMP-/150805660706?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_BoatEquipment_Accessories_SM&hash=item231cb7c422
http://www.whalepumps.com/marine/product-application-items.aspx?FriendlyID=Manual-bilge-pumps&Category_ID=10009&view=page&pageno=2
2nd hand Gusher 30's (117l per min) do come up on Ebay occasionally - you have to bide your time, and they are not cheap new - ~?270.
I got mine for ?50 but had to buy a service kit for it as the diaphrams were missing.
The MK5 might be an option (75l per min)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Whale-bilge-waste-water-transfer-pump-Mk5-Universal-Pump-HAND-BILGE-WATER-PUMP-/150805660706?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_BoatEquipment_Accessories_SM&hash=item231cb7c422
cavermark
New member
SamT
Moderator
Not sure that vid link works...
try
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snliR6m95-s
very simply - its 4 inch drain pipe, with drain rods, at the end is a snug fitting disc which forms a plunger. The disc is made up of two discs, one stiff one with holes in it, on the sump side, and one flexible one. As you push the disc in to the drain pipe (which is submerged in the sump - the flexible disc folds back and lets water through into the drain pipe - as you pull - the flexible disc is pulled tight up against the stiff one and the water is dragged back up the drain pipe.
I'm not sure of exact design, but my thinking is that it can only positioned at the point of run off. i.e. the water that is discharged from the pipe has to at the point it can run away - or as the above, into a holding dam. Presumably suction hose is used to bring water from the sump to the pump. I'm not certain, but I dont think it can be operated at the sump end, i.e. pumping water along a delivery hose to the point of discharge. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.
Brilliant bit of design though
try
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snliR6m95-s
very simply - its 4 inch drain pipe, with drain rods, at the end is a snug fitting disc which forms a plunger. The disc is made up of two discs, one stiff one with holes in it, on the sump side, and one flexible one. As you push the disc in to the drain pipe (which is submerged in the sump - the flexible disc folds back and lets water through into the drain pipe - as you pull - the flexible disc is pulled tight up against the stiff one and the water is dragged back up the drain pipe.
I'm not sure of exact design, but my thinking is that it can only positioned at the point of run off. i.e. the water that is discharged from the pipe has to at the point it can run away - or as the above, into a holding dam. Presumably suction hose is used to bring water from the sump to the pump. I'm not certain, but I dont think it can be operated at the sump end, i.e. pumping water along a delivery hose to the point of discharge. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.
Brilliant bit of design though
martinm
New member
SamT said:
Yeah, there's loads of room. I just wonder how much faster (if at all) it would be than a couple of people with buckets. We tried it that way a few years ago and only managed to lower the water level by a foot or so in a couple of hours bailing... Like I said it's a big sump. :-\
Les W
Active member
Earby Sump Buster was used to completely dewater the Ireby Fell sump many times, to aid in digging a dry bypass. It works very well and is very efficient for large quantities at a low head...
And with very few parts, is cheap to build and esy to maintain. Very reliable too. In fact almosty everything you want from a caving pump...
And with very few parts, is cheap to build and esy to maintain. Very reliable too. In fact almosty everything you want from a caving pump...
nickwilliams
Well-known member
Hucklow Digging Supplies has a Whale 30 pump for loan if required.
I don't want to lose it permanently, but for short term projects, or on a try-before-you-buy basis you are welcome to borrow it for a few months.
Nick.
I don't want to lose it permanently, but for short term projects, or on a try-before-you-buy basis you are welcome to borrow it for a few months.
Nick.
