cap n chris
Well-known member
gus horsley said:
We woz OK; p'raps your team just had a bad curry the night before?
Worst case senario ?
- Thread starter Stupot
- Start date
We woz OK; p'raps your team just had a bad curry the night before?
The incident in Otter Hole happened in the Winter (December time) and your right the original explorers didn't initially realise it was tidal, just that sometimes the sump was full other times it wasn't.
As the sump is now known and trips are only organised during May - September when the tide height is < 13m (IIRC) the risk is some what reduced.
The Otter Trots are a bit notorious - however gained by most people from drinking the water at the camp - don't do just, ignore those cups, the water has been tested and found to be pretty polluted with sewage.
The best prospect for a real flooding problem in the Forest of Dean is Redhouse Lane Swallet. The water level here has been recorded about 1m over the entrance - the main cave is down 25m of pitches/climbs and the first half is crawling/squeezing/thrutching often in the streamway.
Having said that the original diggers worked at this site throughout the year and are all still alive.
As the sump is now known and trips are only organised during May - September when the tide height is < 13m (IIRC) the risk is some what reduced.
The Otter Trots are a bit notorious - however gained by most people from drinking the water at the camp - don't do just, ignore those cups, the water has been tested and found to be pretty polluted with sewage.
The best prospect for a real flooding problem in the Forest of Dean is Redhouse Lane Swallet. The water level here has been recorded about 1m over the entrance - the main cave is down 25m of pitches/climbs and the first half is crawling/squeezing/thrutching often in the streamway.
Having said that the original diggers worked at this site throughout the year and are all still alive.
Stupot said:What is the worst thing that could happen to you / a group underground, something that if it did happen you think to yourself "that's it game over"
Andy Ward reported a near death experience on a diving forum - he got between Duncan Price and the bar when they called last orders!
Marcus
Roger W
Well-known member
I recall reading somewhere of a trip to a cave - I'm pretty sure it was Derbyshire, possibly Matlock area - group of boys (scouts?) and a couple of leaders. IIRC...
Somewhere in the cave was a nice little duck - no big deal, and the lads were told to take a deep breath and dive under...
When they were all on the other side, a count showed they were one short. A thorough search of the cave failed to find the missing lad, cave divers were called in, and one of them, making a final search of the duck, found a hitherto-unnoticed hole leading off somewhere under the water. He investigated and came up in an air bell - and there was the missing boy. He'd spent I don't know how many hours standing there in pitch blackness, up to his neck in water, no idea where he was, what had happened to him, or if anyone would ever come and find him.
Apparently he had obeyed his orders only too well, dived too deep and too far, and gone straight down the aforementioned hitherto-unnoticed hole.
Now that's a situation I don't even want to think about thinking about finding myself in.
I seem to remember the report said something about the lad being got out "without any ill effects."
Me - I'd have been a prime candidate for one of those special jackets with long sleeves that tie behind the back...
Can anybody remember any more details of this one?
Somewhere in the cave was a nice little duck - no big deal, and the lads were told to take a deep breath and dive under...
When they were all on the other side, a count showed they were one short. A thorough search of the cave failed to find the missing lad, cave divers were called in, and one of them, making a final search of the duck, found a hitherto-unnoticed hole leading off somewhere under the water. He investigated and came up in an air bell - and there was the missing boy. He'd spent I don't know how many hours standing there in pitch blackness, up to his neck in water, no idea where he was, what had happened to him, or if anyone would ever come and find him.
Apparently he had obeyed his orders only too well, dived too deep and too far, and gone straight down the aforementioned hitherto-unnoticed hole.
Now that's a situation I don't even want to think about thinking about finding myself in.
I seem to remember the report said something about the lad being got out "without any ill effects."
Me - I'd have been a prime candidate for one of those special jackets with long sleeves that tie behind the back...
Can anybody remember any more details of this one?
cap n chris
Well-known member
Again, it's in Race Against Time. The boy was fine since he found an airbell about 40 foot along the sump and waited there for hours. Divers found him and brought him back. All this is IIRC - can someone with a copy of the book get more precise details than this, please?
kay
Well-known member
AndyF said:
This was the subject of one of the first programmes in the BBC '999' series, several years ago, before I got into caving. Don't know how true the programme was to the original, but if I recall correctly, there was a choice of ways on - quick through a duck, or a longer way round with a climb. Some kids went one way, some the other, and it wasn't till they were out of the cave that they realised they were one short. And they searched the dry bit of the cave before bringing the divers in.
Incredible presence of mind to stay put, and not to go floundering round looking for the way out.
I don't think it's the same incident as in 'Race Against Time' - the nearest similar thing in that (or was it 'Anytime - Anywhere'?) involved army cadets, if I remember rightly, and this was most definitely scouts.
E
emgee
Guest
cap 'n chris said:
The version of this I heard involved an army chap on training trying to free dive the sump at Carlswalk lower entrance and being lucky enough to find an
airbell.
Seems like we're entering urban legend territory here.
For the avoidance of doubt this sump is very definitely not free diveable.
paul
Moderator
emgee said:
It was Carlswark Cavern. Water was pumped out and the soldier was discovered and brought out by Ken Pearce.
From "A Century of British Caving"
http://www.sat.dundee.ac.uk/arb/cpc/century.html
"1965
The first edition of The Speleologist was published (Britain's first truly commercial caving magazine). The Council of Southern Caving Clubs (CSCC) was formed. Cowsh Avens were scaled in Swildons. Swildon's sumps 8 to 12 were passed by divers for the first time with the latter remaining the limit of exploration for a considerable period. A broken column in the Colonnades in Lancaster was mended with Araldite. Aygill Caverns were discovered after a dig. The longest free dive in Britain was achieved when a young army cadet (John KP Stevens) took a wrong turning in a Carslwark sump and managed to keep going until he found a small airbell after 21m. He was found after a major pumping exercise. "
SamT
Moderator
wasnt there a similar incident in Carlswark with a cadet years ago (1963). dived the sump between the gin entrance.
After 80ft - he managed to find an small tight rift in the roof that led to airspace. Was there for hours whilst fire service pumped the sump and the divers (Clive Westlake and Dave Allsop I belive) searched the sump. It was a miracle that even they found the air bell - let alone the cadet. There used to be the full story printed up on the web. I think it was on the DCRO site - but I cant find it now.
Here's the only thing I can find on the web
Preserved here for posterity......
Pot-luck of boy soldier trapped in cave
ONLY a miracle - and the determination of rescuers - saved boy soldier John Stevens when he became trapped underground 36 years ago.
The 16-year-old had been ordered to plunge into a water-filled passage with no exit during a training exercise.
After diving 90ft along the tunnel, John discovered an air pocket, but had no chance of finding his way back. Everyone assumed he had perished, but cave rescuer Dave Allsop and his team battled on and after 13 hours, they reached the young cadet and led him to safety.
John and Dave shook hands above ground and never saw each other again.
But this week, John, now a 52-year-old grandfather, had a heart-warming reunion with his rescuers and revisited the Peak District pothole which nearly claimed his life.
John was on an Army initiative test on July 7, 1965, and dressed only in jeans and a sweater when he dived into the dark, freezing water - experts believe it could be the longest free dive in caving history.
By chance, he found an air pocket, but in the darkness he had no idea how to return to his party. Members of the Derbyshire Cave Rescue Organisation, led by a then 28-year-old Dave, soon came to the conclusion they were looking for a dead body.
For 13 hours, they searched Carlswark Caves, Stoney Middleton, near Buxton, and pumped water from the passage before they found John.
John's daughter Ceri Murray grew up knowing she and her father owed their lives to those dedicated rescuers and has spent years searching for information on her father's adventure.
''We had all the original newspaper cuttings, but they were lost in a fire 20 years ago,'' said Ceri, 29, who lives in Stevenage, Herts.
Finally she found Dave's story of the rescue on the Internet.
''It was really quite emotional and overwhelming when I found it,'' said Ceri.
''When I first spoke to Dave I said 'You are the man who is responsible for me being here'.''
Together, they organised the surprise reunion. Ceri brought her father, two-year-old daughter Paige and other members of the family to Derbyshire and Dave got the rescue team together.
John, now an electrician who lives in Welwyn Garden City, was stunned to meet his rescuers and to return to the cave.
Dressed in a new pair of bright orange overalls and helmet, he went back underground at Carlswark Caves to the watery sump where his epic dive started.
''I didn't realise how lucky I was,'' said John.
''Going down there brought back a few ghosts and the memories of exactly what happened.
''You forget the arrogance of the people who controlled us.
''The guy had to be off his trolley to send a 16-year-old boy down there.
''I had been in three times. I kept coming back to say it was flooded and he said it couldn't be and to get back in there.
''The only reason I survived was I swam for the Army. Every morning I would swim two lengths under water as my first bit of training.
''That whole experience changed my attitude to people in authority. From that day on, I questioned if they were telling me the right thing to do or not.
''There was an official enquiry, but I wasn't even invited. They paid for me to go away with my sister and when I got back I was transferred very quickly.''
Even after all these years, Dave is amazed John survived.
''It might be the most remarkable dive in history - I knew the passage, so I thought we were looking for a body,'' said Dave, who led a team which broke the world pot-holing depth record in the French Alps in 1962.
''But instead of finding someone almost dead and frightened, he was quite cocky, saying he was contemplating swimming back
[/b][/i]
After 80ft - he managed to find an small tight rift in the roof that led to airspace. Was there for hours whilst fire service pumped the sump and the divers (Clive Westlake and Dave Allsop I belive) searched the sump. It was a miracle that even they found the air bell - let alone the cadet. There used to be the full story printed up on the web. I think it was on the DCRO site - but I cant find it now.
Here's the only thing I can find on the web
Preserved here for posterity......
Pot-luck of boy soldier trapped in cave
ONLY a miracle - and the determination of rescuers - saved boy soldier John Stevens when he became trapped underground 36 years ago.
The 16-year-old had been ordered to plunge into a water-filled passage with no exit during a training exercise.
After diving 90ft along the tunnel, John discovered an air pocket, but had no chance of finding his way back. Everyone assumed he had perished, but cave rescuer Dave Allsop and his team battled on and after 13 hours, they reached the young cadet and led him to safety.
John and Dave shook hands above ground and never saw each other again.
But this week, John, now a 52-year-old grandfather, had a heart-warming reunion with his rescuers and revisited the Peak District pothole which nearly claimed his life.
John was on an Army initiative test on July 7, 1965, and dressed only in jeans and a sweater when he dived into the dark, freezing water - experts believe it could be the longest free dive in caving history.
By chance, he found an air pocket, but in the darkness he had no idea how to return to his party. Members of the Derbyshire Cave Rescue Organisation, led by a then 28-year-old Dave, soon came to the conclusion they were looking for a dead body.
For 13 hours, they searched Carlswark Caves, Stoney Middleton, near Buxton, and pumped water from the passage before they found John.
John's daughter Ceri Murray grew up knowing she and her father owed their lives to those dedicated rescuers and has spent years searching for information on her father's adventure.
''We had all the original newspaper cuttings, but they were lost in a fire 20 years ago,'' said Ceri, 29, who lives in Stevenage, Herts.
Finally she found Dave's story of the rescue on the Internet.
''It was really quite emotional and overwhelming when I found it,'' said Ceri.
''When I first spoke to Dave I said 'You are the man who is responsible for me being here'.''
Together, they organised the surprise reunion. Ceri brought her father, two-year-old daughter Paige and other members of the family to Derbyshire and Dave got the rescue team together.
John, now an electrician who lives in Welwyn Garden City, was stunned to meet his rescuers and to return to the cave.
Dressed in a new pair of bright orange overalls and helmet, he went back underground at Carlswark Caves to the watery sump where his epic dive started.
''I didn't realise how lucky I was,'' said John.
''Going down there brought back a few ghosts and the memories of exactly what happened.
''You forget the arrogance of the people who controlled us.
''The guy had to be off his trolley to send a 16-year-old boy down there.
''I had been in three times. I kept coming back to say it was flooded and he said it couldn't be and to get back in there.
''The only reason I survived was I swam for the Army. Every morning I would swim two lengths under water as my first bit of training.
''That whole experience changed my attitude to people in authority. From that day on, I questioned if they were telling me the right thing to do or not.
''There was an official enquiry, but I wasn't even invited. They paid for me to go away with my sister and when I got back I was transferred very quickly.''
Even after all these years, Dave is amazed John survived.
''It might be the most remarkable dive in history - I knew the passage, so I thought we were looking for a body,'' said Dave, who led a team which broke the world pot-holing depth record in the French Alps in 1962.
''But instead of finding someone almost dead and frightened, he was quite cocky, saying he was contemplating swimming back
[/b][/i]
Roger W
Well-known member
I don't know about an urban legend - it sounds as if there have been quite a few cases of people getting lost in water-filled passages and ending up stuck in an airbell with no idea which way is out.
That will do me for a nightmare scenario!
Another one, of course, would be getting your beard caught in your descender half-way down Titan or GG, and no knife or anything to cut yourself free.
I'd never have thought of that situation if I hadn't read about it here!
That will do me for a nightmare scenario!
Another one, of course, would be getting your beard caught in your descender half-way down Titan or GG, and no knife or anything to cut yourself free.
I'd never have thought of that situation if I hadn't read about it here!
E
emgee
Guest
Roger W said:I don't know about an urban legend - it sounds as if there have been quite a few cases of people getting lost in water-filled passages and ending up stuck in an airbell with no idea which way is out.
That will do me for a nightmare scenario!
Another one, of course, would be getting your beard caught in your descender half-way down Titan or GG, and no knife or anything to cut yourself free.
I'd never have thought of that situation if I hadn't read about it here!
You don't carry at least one knife and several other suitably sharp objects?
Mine would be decideing to sacrifice twenty oh ok make that thirty years of beard growth and then cutting the rope by mistake.
Katie
Active member
Well i dont know about beards but i have managed before to get my entire pony tail stuck in my rack going down the Titan entrance shaft! After some time going ouch and trying to stop any more hair going into it i managed to hold the rope coming from my rack with one hand and get my basic on the rope with the other. Then i stood in my foot loop pulling the weight of 30m of rope up with hair but hence unloading the rack so i could pull my hair out!
Arrived at the breakthrough window to find everyone else in position and wondering where i was as i was supposed to be setting off flashes.
Now i cave with my hair securely hidden in my helmet as i dont wanna repeat that one!
