Worst Cave Conservation Photographs

[The Old Ruminator]

This was mooted a while back and of course has inherant problems regarding naming, shaming and copyright. So this one from Facebook of a foreign cave where the photographer is pleased with his image. For a start the subject looks a right twit but he and his gear are all over the pristine stal. I have complained on that particular post. When your " Karst Policeman " sees any more he will add them here.

 

[Pitlamp]

Don't complain too much; he's covering up the grafitti on that stalagmite!

 

[The Old Ruminator]

Don't complain too much; he's covering up the grafitti on that stalagmite!

Yes I saw that. There is no hope really.

 

[Pitlamp]

One is reminded of that list of essential equipment prepared by the late & great Martel, which advocated the inclusion of a sledge hammer to smash the stalagmites!

Good job attitudes have changed since then. Well, at least in the UK.

 

[Ian Ball]

I'm a little surprised, I get the impression from the Avalon club at least that conservation is a top aim.

I wonder how often the Europeans are scraping off spray paint though?

 

[mrodoc]

Reminds of the tomb in the Dent de Crolles where they smashed two stalactites to fashion a cross.

 

[Leclused]

I'm a little surprised, I get the impression from the Avalon club at least that conservation is a top aim.

I wonder how often the Europeans are scraping off spray paint though?

It is still top prio.

 

[Steve Clark]

A certain diver may have removed a perfectly egg-shaped pebble from the entrance slope to the Landenouse resurgence many years ago.

I would offer some photographic evidence of this travesty, but unfortunately my daughter is still incubating her dinosaur egg and will likely still be doing so when I’m long dead and buried.

 

[Jopo]

I wonder why sitting on a already damaged stal boss (in a very clean over suit) is less acceptable than blowing up passages and boulders and filling rifts with scaffold and ladders (a small amount of which I have done myself). Or does "discovery" trump all?

 

[The Old Ruminator]

I wonder why sitting on a already damaged stal boss (in a very clean over suit) is less acceptable than blowing up passages and boulders and filling rifts with scaffold and ladders (a small amount of which I have done myself). Or does "discovery" trump all?

Firstly its about the impression it gives in that anyone can pose on any stal whether clean or not. Its about sending the wrong meassage to other photographers. The second comment about discovery is rather ridiculous considering that many of the most beautiful caves in the UK were found that way. I shall refer to our discovery of the UK's largest chamber by floor area The Frozen Deep and the wonders it contains. Without Stantons earlier work it would never have been found and all that he did there and other places he put conservation at the fore. With that we tried to follow in his example. Our current project is in a mine where one can safely assume that the erection of scaffolding is reasonably acceptable. In all my years of digging I have kept a photographic record of the changes we have made to natural caves. Sure if you want to explore though dangerous chokes without support feel free. What I dont like is so called fixed aids dotted about like the unnecessary scaffold pole we saw on our last visit to Agen Allwedd and the reams of tape strewn along the main passage added many years after the mud floor had been walked over. If cavers found any sort of assisted digging unacceptable we would have no new caves or passages to explore

 

[Jopo]

So "discovery" tops all. I was just wondering why sitting on top of a already damaged stal may be seen as worse than completely altering caves in the spirt of exploration. I have done some cave alteration myself in trying to discover new stuff but I know what I did had far more impact on the cave than sitting on a stal.

 

[Roger W]

Different situations, maybe. The words "necessary" and "needless" come to mind, but others may have different opinions.

 

[MarkS]

What I dont like is so called fixed aids dotted about like the unnecessary scaffold pole we saw on our last visit to Agen Allwedd

This sort of thing, you mean?

Sorry, I'm being flippant, but I think it highlights the lack of absolute right or wrong with this sort of thing.

 

[Leclused]

So "discovery" tops all. I was just wondering why sitting on top of a already damaged stal may be seen as worse than completely altering caves in the spirt of exploration. I have done some cave alteration myself in trying to discover new stuff but I know what I did had far more impact on the cave than sitting on a stal.

No discovery does not tops all. But I must say explorers are always walking a thin line there. During exploring you always need to make trade offs to determine if something is worth it or not. I have been involved in several explo's where good signs (airflow fe) where present but where the circumstances in the cave did not allow to continue exploration. In such a situation you need to be strong and stop further exploration, which is not always that easy.

And digging and blasting is always a subject of controverse. I'll give you an example: while exploring a large system post sifon the divers where at the point that further exploration would become to hard/dangerous to continue despite the way on further was open. It was then decided that a new entrance was needed. A spot for a new entrance was searched and found from within the cave using avalanche beepers/arcana tool. Once the spot was located above ground a new entrance was dug open in the form of a 8m shaft to reach the top of chimney that had been located from the inside.

Imo this dig was necessary to let the exploration continue. Was there cave alteration required, sure there was, was there impact, sure there was but we tried to minimase the impact. After the shaft was there we sealed of the shaft as airtight as possible, we also did not allow that the entrance would be come usefull for bats because the new entrance let to a part of the cave that was inaccesable to bats due to the fact that part of the cave was completely situated between sumps.

So it is up to the explorers to determine how far you want to go but taken in account that you need to takethe right actions after the discovery to protect the discovery in the best way knowing that it will cost you time and money to do so.

 

[Jopo]

I did not, and do not, make any judgement on digging and securing safe access. I like many others have benefitted from diggers opening passage that had been previously unknown but just thought that to title the thread 'Worst Conservation Photographs' and use that pic as a example was a little - shall we say underwhelming. I wish I had a copy of the picture sent to the SWCC of every column in The Columns lit by a candle which was true desecration and I doubt the floor will ever recover. We have all seen abandoned digs - both surface and underground - which demonstrate far worse conservation than sitting on a dry stal.

 

[Leclused]

I did not, and do not, make any judgement on digging and securing safe access. I like many others have benefitted from diggers opening passage that had been previously unknown but just thought that to title the thread 'Worst Conservation Photographs' and use that pic as a example was a little - shall we say underwhelming. I wish I had a copy of the picture sent to the SWCC of every column in The Columns lit by a candle which was true desecration and I doubt the floor will ever recover. We have all seen abandoned digs - both surface and underground - which demonstrate far worse conservation than sitting on a dry stal.

A good discussion about this topic is always welcome to inform others

 

[Ian Adams]

Also taken from the "Cavers of Facebook" forum. It does seem to be the case that what constitutes acceptable conservation/preservation is subjective in the face of exploration.

 

[Babyhagrid]

The problem is that nobody knows if anything will go. I don't think anybody has an issue with the calcite being broken away in end of the Daren entrance crawl, as it has led to a large discoveries. however most would have people have an issue with a wall of flowstone being removed to gain a few meters of continuation. I think that cavers all have a responsibility to preserve pretties and formations, even and especially when they are already damaged. I don't believe that flowstone already having some mud on it means it's okay to go sitting on it. However damage is unavoidable over time. Especially where the only ways on in a passage moves over formation. Such as the travertine passage in Craig. Would a long boardwalk over the gourpools have been worth it to avoid the mud being stomped through them?

 

[The Old Ruminator]

Probably not a helpful post to start with as too many variables. We have abandoned digs due to conservation issues. Namely Skyfall Aven in Reservoir Hole, North Choke in Withyhill, Shatter terminal choke. It was said that Stanton blocked a passage in a Mendip cave so nobody else would ever find it.

 

[cap n chris]

The fabled Stanton blocked passage exists in survey data so anyone who is super familiar with the caves he used to dig will be able to find its whereabouts but obviously cannot physically go there unless the cemented barrier is engineered away. I believe it was sealed on the basis that it was an absolute dead end but did contain some pretties along the way, considered worth preserving by stopping human traffic. It should be left alone.