Would you change your vote now?

[pwhole]

Indeed - here's just one example of an 'Open Public Consultation', of which there are many:

http://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?langId=en&catId=699&consultId=24&visib=0&furtherConsult=yes&path=cms&preview=cHJldkVtcGxQb3J0YWwhMjAxMjAyMTVwcmV2aWV3

The introduction text is particularly ironic, give the level of moaning about 'we don't know who these people are" etc...(my italics)

All citizens and organisations are welcome to contribute. However, contributions are particularly sought from stakeholders and participants/beneficiaries directly involved in the EGF during the 2014-2020 period, especially: - Stakeholders involved with the design and delivery of the EGF support - Stakeholders involved in addressing wider questions of company, industrial and regional restructuring - Participants in EGF support measures.

To paraphrase - "You're welcome to stick your oar in, as long as you know what the hell you're talking about."

 

[RobinGriffiths]

Tell you one down side. I'll have to fork out for a new GB sticker for the car - without the stars. Or whatever initials it's likely to be in 2 years time.

 

[pwhole]

Probably just 'E'.

 

[Simon Wilson]

This is just one of the unelected faceless bureaucrats that Farage hates so much. I am very grateful that there are people like this doing the good work that they do on our behalf.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vytenis_Andriukaitis

 

[Madness]

Whatever your views on Farage, and I think most of us dislike him and what he stands for, he is not the issue.

The issue is that over half of those that voted are not happy with 'their lot'.

It's no good saying that the outcome of the referendum was about immigration, or about being ruled by 'faceless bureaucrats' or whatever. There is much more to it than that.

As a nation we need to find out what it is that's making people unhappy and do something about addressing that. Our current government along with previous governments are failing to deliver what the nation wants. I suspect that they don't even know, or care about what we want.

Perhaps they ought to ask us.

 

[Simon Wilson]

I think they did ask but they asked the wrong question.

People will always be unhappy with their lot but most of the things I hear people moaning about are nothing to do with the EU.

One nurse that I asked told me that she was voting leave because she wanted to see the ?350 million spending on the NHS. I told her that was a lie. She voted leave. 

 

[Madness]

The wife of a work colleague works at our local hospital. She voted out because of what she experiences at work (her perception of abuse of our NHS by Eastern European imigrants and 'health tourists'), not because of anything she is promised by politicians.

Believing what a politician tells you is dangerous.

 

[cooleycr]

Phil - Spain uses E on her cars - (Espa?a) in the same way that Germans use D rather than G (not K?!?!?!)

On the Trekkie theme, it strikes me that we are a bit like the Romulans - quote from Wiki -

"they are generally depicted as antagonists, and are usually at war with or in a tenuous truce with the United Federation of Planets. On extremely rare occasions, they have allied with the Federation."

just checked the international listing of motor vehicle licencing list and R is spare so we should used that..

it saddens me that the EU has been likened to the Third Reich and that our wonderful country with all the different peoples living and working here that have made it what it is today, is now being seen as a racist country, what with Mr Corbyn and his '70's policies it seems that the people have reverted to the Alf Garnet mind-set that was prevalent back then...

not so enlightened now are we?!?!?!

and do the health workers really believe that all that money will be ploughed into the NHS - wake up and smell the Napalm people!

 

[Simon Wilson]

The wife of a work colleague works at our local hospital. She voted out because of what she experiences at work (her perception of abuse of our NHS by Eastern European imigrants and 'health tourists'), not because of anything she is promised by politicians.

Believing what a politician tells you is dangerous.

There are measures in place to prevent what you call "health tourism". Immigrants from the new member Eastern European states are required to come to work. Because of that requirement they have a higher employment rate than 'native' residents and therefore they contribute more National Insurance.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/european-immigrants-contribute-5bn-to-uk-economy-but-non-eu-migrants-cost-118bn-9840170.html

I meet people from all walks of life in my work including many immigrants from eastern Europe and my 'perception' of them is different to your friend. I overwhelmingly find them to be conscientious and hardworking people who are an asset to the both the UK and our wider family of the EU. But one's 'perceptions' are largely affected by one's prejudices are they not?

 

[Madness]

But one's 'perceptions' are largely affected by one's prejudices are they not?

Indeed they are Simon.

On a personal level I've only really met Poles. I've worked with them and found them to have a good work ethic, better than a lot of English. I also rent my house out to a Polish couple who are by far the most respectful tenants that I've had.

The thing is that when you know a person you tend to know whether or not to trust what they tell you. I've no reason to doubt what my colleague wife tells me.

We shouldn't focus on entirely on 'the imigrant concerns', I think the EU issue runs much deeper.

 

[alastairgott]

Phil - Spain uses E on her cars - (Espa?a) in the same way that Germans use D rather than G (not K?!?!?!)

Guess it's "Eng" then or just "WE" (Wales and England).

D for Deutschland.

 

[Simon Wilson]

But one's 'perceptions' are largely affected by one's prejudices are they not?

Indeed they are Simon.

On a personal level I've only really met Poles. I've worked with them and found them to have a good work ethic, better than a lot of English. I also rent my house out to a Polish couple who are by far the most respectful tenants that I've had.

The thing is that when you know a person you tend to know whether or not to trust what they tell you. I've no reason to doubt what my colleague wife tells me.

We shouldn't focus on entirely on 'the imigrant concerns', I think the EU issue runs much deeper.

There are very good reasons to doubt what you were told. That is why I posted the link to the article. Her perceptions are demonstrably wrong.

 

[Madness]

But one's 'perceptions' are largely affected by one's prejudices are they not?

Indeed they are Simon.

On a personal level I've only really met Poles. I've worked with them and found them to have a good work ethic, better than a lot of English. I also rent my house out to a Polish couple who are by far the most respectful tenants that I've had.

The thing is that when you know a person you tend to know whether or not to trust what they tell you. I've no reason to doubt what my colleague wife tells me.

We shouldn't focus on entirely on 'the imigrant concerns', I think the EU issue runs much deeper.

There are very good reasons to doubt what you were told. That is why I posted the link to the article. Her perceptions are demonstrably wrong.

I've read the article Simon. I don't believe my colleagues wife is disputing that Eastern European imigrants are benificial to the economy. That's not what we're discussing here, it's the perception (be it right or wrong) that imigrants are coming over here, using our health services, not necessarily working or paying taxes and then going home after their treatment is complete.

You can only take at face value what you are told by intelligent people unless you have information to the contrary.

 

[royfellows]

Things are happening out there, Boris out the the race and markets climbing.

My gut feeling is the man to watch is Stephen Crabb.

 

[Madness]

I think Boris realises that he wouldn't win.

I also suspect that MP's will not vote to initiate Article 50, and we won't leave the EU.

It'll be interesting to see what historians make of it in 20 years time.

 

[mrodoc]

and how many of them were democratically elected?

Genuine question by the way, I can't fathom how it all works! 

People believed it when Farage told them that the EU isn't democratic without bothering to find out anything about "how it all works". The vast majority of the people doing the work of the UK government are not elected. The UK civil service is HUGE and is not elected.

    Hacker: Who else is in this department?

    Sir Humphrey: Well briefly, sir, I am the Permanent Under-Secretary of State, known as the Permanent Secretary. Woolley here is your Principal Private Secretary. I too have a Principal Private Secretary and he is the Principal Private Secretary to the Permanent Secretary. Directly responsible to me are ten Deputy Secretaries, 87 Under Secretaries and 219 Assistant Secretaries. Directly responsible to the Principal Private Secretaries are plain Private Secretaries, and the Prime Minister will be appointing two Parliamentary Under-Secretaries and you will be appointing your own Parliamentary Private Secretary.
    Hacker: Can they all type?

The leg work of the EU is carried out by the Commissions headed by the Commissioners who are appointees one from each member country and they rotate every five years. https://ec.europa.eu/commission/2014-2019_en

There is now no commissioner from the UK because he has just resigned probably because he is outraged and feels disgusted and ashamed to call himself British. https://ec.europa.eu/commission/2014-2019/hill_en

A few more people should have bothered to find out a little bit about how it all works before swallowing Farages crap about it not being democratic.

  I have said this all along.  Our system is no more democratic than the EU. A first past the post system has in the past wildly distorted what people want. The good news is that all the old political allegiances are disintegrating and what is happening is a symptom of that disintegration.

 

[royfellows]

It'll be interesting to see what historians make of it in 20 years time.

In 20 years time we should have the answers

 

[Simon Wilson]

and how many of them were democratically elected?

Genuine question by the way, I can't fathom how it all works! 

People believed it when Farage told them that the EU isn't democratic without bothering to find out anything about "how it all works". The vast majority of the people doing the work of the UK government are not elected. The UK civil service is HUGE and is not elected.

    Hacker: Who else is in this department?

    Sir Humphrey: Well briefly, sir, I am the Permanent Under-Secretary of State, known as the Permanent Secretary. Woolley here is your Principal Private Secretary. I too have a Principal Private Secretary and he is the Principal Private Secretary to the Permanent Secretary. Directly responsible to me are ten Deputy Secretaries, 87 Under Secretaries and 219 Assistant Secretaries. Directly responsible to the Principal Private Secretaries are plain Private Secretaries, and the Prime Minister will be appointing two Parliamentary Under-Secretaries and you will be appointing your own Parliamentary Private Secretary.
    Hacker: Can they all type?

The leg work of the EU is carried out by the Commissions headed by the Commissioners who are appointees one from each member country and they rotate every five years. https://ec.europa.eu/commission/2014-2019_en

There is now no commissioner from the UK because he has just resigned probably because he is outraged and feels disgusted and ashamed to call himself British. https://ec.europa.eu/commission/2014-2019/hill_en

A few more people should have bothered to find out a little bit about how it all works before swallowing Farages crap about it not being democratic.

  I have said this all along.  Our system is no more democratic than the EU. A first past the post system has in the past wildly distorted what people want. The good news is that all the old political allegiances are disintegrating and what is happening is a symptom of that disintegration.

Democracy is a word which is impossible to define. One thing is for certain, it is not an absolute. What annoys me is that people were being told that the EU is not democratic and they believed it without understanding the issues. Things are certainly being stirred up and hopefully we will emerge out of the other side of this horrendous mess with slight improvement in our democracy.

 

[bograt]

Hmm, they've had a Salmon, now got a Sturgeon, there could now be a Crabb, anyone spot a theme developing??----

 

[Simon Wilson]

I think Boris realises that he wouldn't win.

I also suspect that MP's will not vote to initiate Article 50, and we won't leave the EU.

It'll be interesting to see what historians make of it in 20 years time.

Many people are saying that Boris didn't expect the leave vote to win and didn't want it to win.

It looks as though the Tory leadership contest will be a contest on leaving the EU. It might turn out that a significant proportion of the Tory Party were thinking the same as Boris.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-a6HNXtdvVQ