Author Topic: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things  (Read 123294 times)

Offline notdavidgilmour

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #75 on: March 18, 2013, 11:30:25 pm »
Bumping into them while exploring their cave via the entrance on their land might be a giveaway.

Also, some caves have concealed data loggers which record numbers, direction etc..

But in the scenario we are debating, we have already established that the entrance may not be on their land.  If it is on their land but the land was covered by CROW then surely if CROW was extended to cover caves, bumping into them at the entrance still wouldn't be an issue?
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Offline Ian Adams

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #76 on: March 18, 2013, 11:31:33 pm »
I think it is neither realistic nor possible. But this is just a hunch; perhaps someone with expert knowledge could guess how realistic and possible it is.


It depends on whether the legislators deliberately worded CROW to exclude caving or whether it was unwittingly excluded. It also depends on what a court of law would think the answer to that question was should it be brought before them.

My “guess” would be that if caving was deliberately excluded then any form of campaign to have it instated would probably fail. On the other hand, if it was unwittingly excluded there is every chance of a campaign succeeding unless, of course, there was significant (valid?) opposition.

Ian
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Offline Ian Adams

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #77 on: March 18, 2013, 11:33:07 pm »
Just put a sign in the cave saying "this is the boundry, you must not pass this point" it works in cwmorthin/oakly

Yes it does and I guess that would be one way of addressing the issue ....
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Offline NigR

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #78 on: March 18, 2013, 11:38:23 pm »
Also, some caves have concealed data loggers which record numbers, direction etc..

Really?


Offline Ian Adams

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #79 on: March 18, 2013, 11:41:42 pm »
Draenen has (had?) one .....
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Offline notdavidgilmour

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #80 on: March 18, 2013, 11:47:30 pm »
Also, some caves have concealed data loggers which record numbers, direction etc..

Really?

I found this in my lunch box on last week's caving trip



MI5 were waiting when I got out  :-\
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Offline estelle

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #81 on: March 18, 2013, 11:47:46 pm »
The contentious element is where the land owner is approached and representations for access are negotiated where the “agenda” (laid down by the person(s) approaching the landowner) is not in the interests of cavers per se but, rather, for their own purpose. This “empowers” that person/club or group and some of those people begin to command dominion over their peers and “police” something that does not need to be policed. This includes making other people jump through hoops or even not allowing them access at all. Sometimes the approaching person(s) intentions are iniquitous even though they are probably unaware of it and may even believe that they are acting in the best interests of “all”.
the problem is that we don't know exactly what is going on 'behind the scenes' in each situation so we don't know for sure whether the landowner or the caver individuals or caving club or regional body are setting the agenda and if we're not in the room listening to the discussion, we have no proof either way, we only have the opinions of those there and for every individual, there is likely to be a different opinion! (and add some chinese whispers in as well by the time the story is retold in the pub several times!) Sometimes, if access is being denied or become awkward, we don't necessarily know the trigger for the reasons - it could just as easily be internal or external to cavers.
Every region is different and access arrangements are handled differently - we don't seem to hear much about CROW land in the Mendip area, but then looking at the CROW webpage and map, there seems to be very little land within that caving area marked yellow for CROW land and South Wales seems to be much the same, while the northern caving areas seems to have a lot more land covered by CROW so it no doubt makes the CROW argument a non-starter if very little land is covered by it where it seems to be quite a big feature up north.

Quote
Again, though, we have moved away from the original suggestion of extending CROW to allow for access to caves and “digging” would not be embraced within that.
when does a 'dig' become a 'cave' though? and don't many existing caves also have dig sites within the cave?
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Offline Ian Adams

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #82 on: March 18, 2013, 11:55:26 pm »
Estelle,

Of course we are not privy to the actual negotiations but we do see the end result. We also see the terms and conditions laid down by those who did the negotiation. Without naming anyone (to avoid flaming) there are some very obvious examples.

Of course I accept that some negotiations are for the benefit of cavers per se and I can name some of them too (as probably we all can).

I still think the “dig” issue is a misnomer; digging would not be covered by CROW as it stands and would need landowner consent.

Ian
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Offline NigR

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #83 on: March 19, 2013, 12:41:44 am »
Also, some caves have concealed data loggers which record numbers, direction etc..

Really?

Draenen has (had?) one .....

Never!?  :o

Offline NigR

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #84 on: March 19, 2013, 03:27:11 am »
I've tried to read this thread and the "other" quite a few times, but my mind just starts to melt and i give up.

can someone just tell me if this is right or wrong though please..

CROW land is land covered by "The countryside and rights of way act"?

you have the right to roam on land covered by CROW?

if there is a cave on land covered by crow, you can walk up to said cave in caving gear, but you cant go in without the permision of the land owner?

if the above is correct, how would extending CROW to give you permision to cave have any extra
effect, either negertive or posertive on the land owner...

Nore would it give people the right to access caves on land not covered by CROW.

if all the above is right, i dont understand why anyone wouldnt want open access for all, on all caves on land covered by CROW unless it was so they could controll access and "empire build"

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Offline Blakethwaite

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #85 on: March 19, 2013, 07:21:55 am »
I'm not really certain why so much energy and anger is being expended debating this issue on an internet forum.

Do people think that Parliament is likely to go to the trouble to extend current legislature to satisfy the needs of a minority section of a minority group? If so, are they likely to do so as a consequence of a handful of people arguing on UKCaving?

If not, what practical steps are being taken? Presumably people are writing to their MPs and forming action / lobbying groups? Are these producing positive feedback?

If an extension of CROW did allow Joe Public to wander down any old open hole it wouldn't remove the landowners rights upon the ground & the landowner would presumably be at liberty to block said hole by means suitable to a particular situation?

How would conservation issues be addressed? Increased traffic demonstrably causes increased wear & tear and that's without starting to consider litter, graffiti & aggravated damage.

As for alleged local 'empire building' on non-Open Access land, again the internet isn't likely to change much. My club isn't likely to try and change its access agreements because of sour comments on the internet because we know what hoops we had to jump through to get permission to dig in the first place and I imagine that there will be very few clubs who don't share that thought.

If there is a need to do something then that action needs to be done on the ground in a way that will not prejudice existing though possibly not ideal agreements if they fall through?



Offline Rhys

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #86 on: March 19, 2013, 07:40:56 am »
A reasonable question about the possibility of extending the CROW gets comments deleted, people banned and direct insults? the word "Fucknuggets" was invented for idiots that act like that.
Nobody's been banned.
Bullshit. I know at least one.
Nope. If someone is telling you they're banned as a result of the recent access threads, they are mistaken.

Offline TheBitterEnd

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #87 on: March 19, 2013, 07:46:49 am »

if there is a cave on land covered by crow, you can walk up to said cave in caving gear, but you cant go in without the permision of the land owner?


The CROW act is silent on the matter of caving. The act grants permission to access the land shown on the maps. The act lists a specific set of Exclusions (quoted earlier in this thread), caving is not in that list of exclusions. Perhaps of note is that rock climbing is also in  this situation and the view there is that if it is not explicitly excluded then it is allowed.

Also worth noting is that the act significantly reduces landowners liability with respect to natural features for people exercising their CROW Act right of access.

Ultimately a court would have to decide if caving is in or out and given that caving is such a minority sport and has no money in it it is unlikely to get that far.
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Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #88 on: March 19, 2013, 07:50:44 am »
Also, some caves have concealed data loggers which record numbers, direction etc..

Really?

Two caves on Mendip during my tenure as C&A numpty - not sure if they're still in situ - shan't name the caves though.  :)

Offline graham

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #89 on: March 19, 2013, 08:08:00 am »
Also, some caves have concealed data loggers which record numbers, direction etc..

Really?

Two caves on Mendip during my tenure as C&A numpty - not sure if they're still in situ - shan't name the caves though.  :)

Some in South Wales as well. This information is freely available on the world wide interweb.
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Offline NewStuff

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #90 on: March 19, 2013, 08:19:18 am »
A reasonable question about the possibility of extending the CROW gets comments deleted, people banned and direct insults? the word "Fucknuggets" was invented for idiots that act like that.
Nobody's been banned.
Bullshit. I know at least one.
Nope. If someone is telling you they're banned as a result of the recent access threads, they are mistaken.

Rhys -
On the contrary, Yes.
He was banned as a direct result of posting on one of the 2 threads where the issue of CROW access has been raised.

NigR - A number of Welsh caves have counters IIRC, and re-reading a few CCC newsletter seems to support that notion.
Should someone be so inclined, it's probably not difficult to bypass these without causing damage to them, or the cave in which they are situated.
Permission? Wassat den?

Offline graham

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #91 on: March 19, 2013, 08:26:36 am »

Rhys -
On the contrary, Yes.
He was banned as a direct result of posting on one of the 2 threads where the issue of CROW access has been raised.


So you know more about this than the bloke who actually does any actual banning?. Fascinating.


NigR - A number of Welsh caves have counters IIRC, and re-reading a few CCC newsletter seems to support that notion.
Should someone be so inclined, it's probably not difficult to bypass these without causing damage to them, or the cave in which they are situated.


Why the hell would you want to? It's not as if they are fitted with cameras.
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Offline NewStuff

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #92 on: March 19, 2013, 08:29:41 am »

Rhys -
On the contrary, Yes.
He was banned as a direct result of posting on one of the 2 threads where the issue of CROW access has been raised.


So you know more about this than the bloke who actually does any actual banning?. Fascinating.


He may not have banned him.
But he was banned as a direct result of posting in here. Stop being a wind up merchant and wind your neck in.



NigR - A number of Welsh caves have counters IIRC, and re-reading a few CCC newsletter seems to support that notion.
Should someone be so inclined, it's probably not difficult to bypass these without causing damage to them, or the cave in which they are situated.


Why the hell would you want to? It's not as if they are fitted with cameras.

I wouldn't, and Your reading comprehension appears to need time to warm up in the morning.
You may want to try again later, maybe after You have a nice coffee.
Permission? Wassat den?

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #93 on: March 19, 2013, 08:31:12 am »
Nothing on moderation log about recent bannings; have you checked password or done a reset etc.?

Your IP has a large number of errors logged on it, though.

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #94 on: March 19, 2013, 08:39:54 am »
Ah, just checking IPs and I think we've got two contributors registered to the same IP - I'm not a geek so wouldn't know but perhaps therein lies a techie problemo. Could notdavidgilmour and his alter ego stand up to be counted!

Offline NewStuff

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #95 on: March 19, 2013, 08:41:13 am »
Nothing on moderation log about recent bannings; have you checked password or done a reset etc.?

I'll check, but he said it was a ban, and he's not the type easily confused by a forum.

Your IP has a large number of errors logged on it, though.

It's BT on VDSL, it wouldn't surprise me. Sadly, I can't get this bandwidth at this price any other way, C'est la vie

EDIT:-

I am me, and only me. I do not have another account on here, and this is my username on a number of exploration fora.
Permission? Wassat den?

Offline notdavidgilmour

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #96 on: March 19, 2013, 08:41:57 am »
I am here. Is there a problem?  :bounce:
I do it because i can, I can because I want to, I want to because you said I couldn't.

Offline graham

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #97 on: March 19, 2013, 08:44:07 am »
 :coffee:
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Offline notdavidgilmour

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #98 on: March 19, 2013, 08:52:53 am »
Bad Behavior has blocked 2232 access attempts in the last 7 days. LOL  :spank:

No break time and detention for a week?  :spank:
I do it because i can, I can because I want to, I want to because you said I couldn't.

Offline droid

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #99 on: March 19, 2013, 09:08:11 am »
Newbies are getting a bit exciteable :lol: :lol: :lol:

Maybe they could try to remember this is caving, not urbex :wall:
No longer 'Exceptionally antagonistic' 'Deliberately inflammatory'

 

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