Author Topic: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things  (Read 118425 times)

Offline Les W

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #150 on: March 19, 2013, 09:04:05 pm »
Whats urbex? :shrug:

Urbex is Urban Exploring. Drains, old derelict buildings, cranes, gasometers, bridges, tunnels, etc.

Have a look at:
http://www.28dayslater.co.uk/forums/index.php
http://nwex.co.uk/
http://siologen.livejournal.com/
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Offline Bob Smith

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #151 on: March 19, 2013, 09:10:19 pm »
Urban exploration. Often abandoned man made structures.

Offline NewStuff

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #152 on: March 19, 2013, 09:35:24 pm »
Get off your high horse

and wind your neck in.

Bullshit.

Is there really any need for all this ranting? If you don't like your local access issues go and do something about it locally; you'll achieve sweet FA by ranting and raving on here.

Ranting? Nope, just pointing out a few problems, mistakes and errors I've seen.  I'll admit to being a little cheesed off by the wilful ignorance towards others, both in respect to Urbex etc, and people on this issue that happen to be on the opposing side. If I went on a Rant I would not be as polite as I have been so far. I'm not particularly well known for beating around the bush though, and I call it as I see it. Should You consider that ranting, I would suggest a visit into the wider world may help open Your eyes.

Although I am doing what I can locally, I did have a notion, strange though it may be, that trying to change things at a national level may well help out at a local level, and benefit others. You know, like Yourself, maybe.

Despite the thinly veiled and snarky comments in this thread, aimed mostly at people with a similar viewpoint to mine, my wish is that there is reasonable, equal access for *all*, including those who, judging by their conduct on here, do not want to see it happen, and indulged in the aforementioned behaviour.
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Online droid

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #153 on: March 19, 2013, 09:36:19 pm »
Get off your high horse, and don't use the lowest common denominator to classify everyone, it's a load of crap and You know it, and it's kind of unpleasant if (when?) it gets turned around and used against yourself.

No high horse here, NewStuff. Just an observation.

Which you can turn back on me all you like. I'm not as easy to piss off or wind up as you clearly are. :lol:
No longer 'Exceptionally antagonistic' 'Deliberately inflammatory'

Offline NewStuff

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #154 on: March 19, 2013, 09:43:20 pm »
Get off your high horse, and don't use the lowest common denominator to classify everyone, it's a load of crap and You know it, and it's kind of unpleasant if (when?) it gets turned around and used against yourself.

No high horse here, NewStuff. Just an observation.

Which you can turn back on me all you like. I'm not as easy to piss off or wind up as you clearly are. :lol:

As posted above, a little cheesed off about sums it up.

It's Your choice to believe that most urbexers are cocks that post up pictures they really shouldn't. If that's what You choose to believe in, I'll not argue, as it would be akin to debating the existence of a deity with a adherent of that religion. No matter the observations or facts you place before them, it's almost impossible to reason with "brainwashing". Carry one as You were.
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Offline LizW1985

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #155 on: March 19, 2013, 09:46:16 pm »
Is urbex illegal?  Looks rather cool, although getting an asbo for trespassing or whatever the law is wouldn't be so cool :-\

Offline Blakethwaite

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #156 on: March 19, 2013, 09:50:37 pm »
and benefit others. You know, like Yourself, maybe.

Just a touch of the Jesus Syndrome there no?
I have no particular problems with access thank you & require no particular help.

Offline Les W

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #157 on: March 19, 2013, 09:54:58 pm »
Urbex can be legal through to totally illegal. If you look at Siologen's blog you will see he was arrested for gaining illegal access to Aldwych Tube Station.

Trespass itself is not illegal, it is a civil offence however there are other laws that can be brought to bear in certain circumstances and certainly there have been attempts to tighten up on various aspects of gaining entry to these sites.
Drains have their own set of hazards too, like very active cave systems.
There is a very large Urbex movement in the UK with lots of sites to visit.
Urbex, mine exploration and caving really cross over a lot, with many people involved in all, or some of the different aspects of each.
Similar skill sets with like minded individuals mean that many people are doing these things. They tend to be quite photogenic places too as you can see if you hunt around.
Some really cool photos on the Urban Glow gallery site...
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Offline notdavidgilmour

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #158 on: March 19, 2013, 09:55:17 pm »

Surely blowing things up does not fall in line with conservation?

the diggers, who are very conservation minded, spent a considerable amount of time and money blasting a bypass through solid rock.

Does this post not contradict itself?  How can a caver be conservation minded by blasting through solid rock?  Surely the original structure  and layout of the cave holds a higher conservational value than the much newer stal formation?

My interest in caves is how they were formed, looking at the scalloping on the walls in relation to the passages and working out which way the water was flowing.  By calling in the DIY SOS team and blowing everything up, the cave is merely a hole to me.
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Offline cavermark

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #159 on: March 19, 2013, 10:53:21 pm »


Does this post not contradict itself?  How can a caver be conservation minded by blasting through solid rock?  Surely the original structure  and layout of the cave holds a higher conservational value than the much newer stal formation?


If the bypass is through solid rock - not enlarging an existing passage, then all the scalloping and original layout will remain. Whilst we often try to conserve stal because it looks pretty, there is also a lot of scientific information held in calcite, with  relevence such reconstructing past climates to learn about climate change, as well as dating and learning about the development of the specific cave system.


My interest in caves is how they were formed, looking at the scalloping on the walls in relation to the passages and working out which way the water was flowing.  By calling in the DIY SOS team and blowing everything up, the cave is merely a hole to me.

It's a matter of scale - we're not blowing "everything" up - usually just boulders that block a way through. In doing so we gain access to large cave systems and all the scientific learning potential they contain. Often the boulders are glacial infill near entrances that hold little relevence to the geomorphology of the cave. For example Ogof Draenen found in the 1990's - a couple of hundred metres of digging and blasting boulders, to discover over 60km of passages - most would say that's a worthwhile compromise?
One analogy could be removing some ancient stone walling to gain access to an Egyptian Pyramid.

The ultimate conservation is to never enter a cave; but if we do, then a compromise is made and the current consensus is that explosives are an acceptable tool to use to do this.


Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #160 on: March 19, 2013, 10:55:27 pm »
How can a caver be conservation minded by blasting through solid rock?

Indeed. A moot point. Rock, after all, is a finite and dwindling resource, see:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/geologists-we-may-be-slowly-running-out-of-rocks,17341/

Alternatively DNFTT....

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=acronym+dnftt

Offline cavermark

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #161 on: March 19, 2013, 10:59:13 pm »
How can a caver be conservation minded by blasting through solid rock?

Or - caves are the voids between rocks.
Cave conservation must be conserving the voids. Blowing up rocks makes more void - win win!

Offline cavermark

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #162 on: March 19, 2013, 11:12:46 pm »
Alternatively DNFTT....

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=acronym+dnftt

Ooo - I've never knowingly had a troll encounter before (well on a forum that is; Friday nights in various caving huts are different...)

"Cave Troll" is a nice enough chap - can we still feed him?

Offline robjones

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #163 on: March 19, 2013, 11:20:13 pm »
caves are the voids between rocks.

And thus when a quarry consumes a cave-riddled hill, only the rock surrounding the cave is removed; the cave is left perfectly intact.  :-\

Offline Ian Adams

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #164 on: March 19, 2013, 11:30:37 pm »
There is a quarry in Minera (Wrexham) that decimated a very nice cave system (some photos remain). Should the “quarry” have been allowed to continue (since the cave was known about prior) ?

Too late now, it’s gone and all that remains are memories (and a few photos).

Sorry I can’t resist this ....

For example Ogof Draenen found in the 1990's - a couple of hundred metres of digging and blasting boulders, to discover over 60km of passages - most would say that's a worthwhile compromise?

.... and then the diggers get locked out ... ?

 :blink:

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Offline cavermark

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #165 on: March 19, 2013, 11:34:08 pm »
caves are the voids between rocks.

And thus when a quarry consumes a cave-riddled hill, only the rock surrounding the cave is removed; the cave is left perfectly intact.  :-\

Exactly!
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Offline cavermark

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #166 on: March 19, 2013, 11:36:37 pm »

.... and then the diggers get locked out ... ?

 :blink:

Ian

..and that's a tale for a different day, yawwn, must be time for bed.....

Offline Brains

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #167 on: March 20, 2013, 12:09:26 am »
I get the feelings some people may be confusing conservation and preservation.
As cavers our prime objective is to go caving, and our collective efforts should be towards making this as staightforward as possible. Why would any caver in principle wish to reduce access to fellow cavers?
The situation of caves on CRoW land is currently farcical, and access may already be permitted subject to a test case. Conservation and preservation are different but related issues

Offline notdavidgilmour

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #168 on: March 20, 2013, 12:37:42 am »

As cavers our prime objective is to go caving, and our collective efforts should be towards making this as staightforward as possible. Why would any caver in principle wish to reduce access to fellow cavers?


Well said that man! I am aware of the difference between preservation and conservation, my argument isn't for or against either, my argument is that there are people on here that think keeping caves under lock and key will prevent damage, when some members of the  caving community cause damage themselves but justify it in the name of furthering exploration.  I understand there is a balance.

I am based in North Wales so tend to explore locally.  I have no more right to explore my local systems than someone travelling from further afield, which is why I don't go around gating them all up.  I therefore do not see why, if I travel to a different region, I have to "seek permission" and or pay to join another club to enter a cave. 

Keep caves open and keep empire building for the Monopoly board. 
I do it because i can, I can because I want to, I want to because you said I couldn't.

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #169 on: March 20, 2013, 08:35:20 am »
Second sentence, exchange "know" for "think".

Offline notdavidgilmour

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #170 on: March 20, 2013, 09:58:40 am »
Second sentence, exchange "know" for "think".

Chris,

To "know" something requires an undoubtable fact.  The issue of whether caves should all be locked up is a matter of opinion as this very thread highlights.  Therefore "think" was and still is the appropriate word to use.

I have included the definitions of each below (and a link to the source) if you are struggling:

Know - to be certain
Think - to believe something or have an opinion or idea

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/think_1?q=think
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Offline graham

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #171 on: March 20, 2013, 10:17:24 am »
Second sentence, exchange "know" for "think".

Chris,

To "know" something requires an undoubtable fact.  The issue of whether caves should all be locked up is a matter of opinion as this very thread highlights.

In which case, those of us who care about the condition of our caves should apply the precautionary principle and limit the amount of usage our caves get.

Quote
The precautionary principle or precautionary approach states if an action or policy has a suspected risk of causing harm to the public or to the environment, in the absence of scientific consensus that the action or policy is harmful, the burden of proof that it is not harmful falls on those taking an act.

This principle allows policy makers to make discretionary decisions in situations where there is the possibility of harm from taking a particular course or making a certain decision when extensive scientific knowledge on the matter is lacking. The principle implies that there is a social responsibility to protect the public from exposure to harm, when scientific investigation has found a plausible risk. These protections can be relaxed only if further scientific findings emerge that provide sound evidence that no harm will result.

In some legal systems, as in the law of the European Union, the application of the precautionary principle has been made a statutory requirement.

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Offline Stuart Anderson

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #172 on: March 20, 2013, 10:25:52 am »
How much would fair usage be Graham?
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Offline jasonbirder

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #173 on: March 20, 2013, 10:35:38 am »
Quote
those of us who care about the condition of our caves should...limit the amount of usage our caves get...

As a self-confessed Caver...I like going in Caves (there's a clue in the name) and while I like to think I'm sensible enough to be careful under most circumstances (don't touch this...don't break that, stay within the tape etc etc) and would obviously encourage others to do the same...I've no interest in limiting my Caving activity...in fact i'm rather fond of maximising it...

Besides where's the logic...if there's no access to caves...what exactly are we preserving them for?


Offline Stuart Anderson

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #174 on: March 20, 2013, 10:37:53 am »
Quote
those of us who care about the condition of our caves should...limit the amount of usage our caves get...

As a self-confessed Caver...I like going in Caves (there's a clue in the name) and while I like to think I'm sensible enough to be careful under most circumstances (don't touch this...don't break that, stay within the tape etc etc) and would obviously encourage others to do the same...I've no interest in limiting my Caving activity...in fact i'm rather fond of maximising it...

Besides where's the logic...if there's no access to caves...what exactly are we preserving them for?

Or even bothering to dig for them in the first place?
I've roamed and rambled and I've followed my footsteps
To the sparkling sands of her diamond deserts
And all around me a voice was sounding
This land was made for you and me