Author Topic: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things  (Read 123305 times)

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #175 on: March 20, 2013, 10:38:10 am »
Second sentence, exchange "know" for "think".

Chris,

To "know" something requires an undoubtable fact. 

Notdavidgilmour, I know it to be true. It is a fact that I do not doubt. Not even for an instant.

Offline notdavidgilmour

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #176 on: March 20, 2013, 10:43:34 am »

In which case, those of us who care about the condition of our caves should apply the precautionary principle and limit the amount of usage our caves get.


But what gives a caver the right to "limit access" to other cavers.  How do you know that I won't be just as careful if not more careful than yourself when it comes to applying the "precautionary principle"?
I do it because i can, I can because I want to, I want to because you said I couldn't.

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #177 on: March 20, 2013, 10:46:08 am »
In the case of a local cave here on Mendip I'd say (and I think many others would agree) that spending 32 years digging before finding something confers a degree of "right" over the subsequent discovery.

Offline notdavidgilmour

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #178 on: March 20, 2013, 10:46:56 am »
Second sentence, exchange "know" for "think".

Chris,

To "know" something requires an undoubtable fact. 

Notdavidgilmour, I know it to be true. It is a fact that I do not doubt. Not even for an instant.

No Chris, you do not know, like I have already said, it's your opinion.  In fact most of the posts on here are opinions.  Therefore you do not know, you think
I do it because i can, I can because I want to, I want to because you said I couldn't.

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #179 on: March 20, 2013, 10:47:57 am »
I think you're an annoying troll and I hope not to meet you. Is that OK?

Offline notdavidgilmour

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #180 on: March 20, 2013, 10:57:00 am »
I think you're an annoying troll and I hope not to meet you. Is that OK?

That would suit me just fine to be honest. 
I do it because i can, I can because I want to, I want to because you said I couldn't.

Offline NigR

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #181 on: March 20, 2013, 11:12:25 am »
I think you're an annoying troll......

He might be annoying you but he isn't a troll, he is a member of a caving club who clearly feels passionately about the subject being discussed. By accusing him of being a troll you are simply attempting to diminish the credibility of his views in the eyes of others. Cheap tactic, Chris.

Offline Ian Adams

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #182 on: March 20, 2013, 11:34:08 am »
In the case of a local cave here on Mendip I'd say (and I think many others would agree) that spending 32 years digging before finding something confers a degree of "right" over the subsequent discovery.

Is that what happened at Draenen ?

(Sorry, couldn't resist again)

..... I don't think it is "right" that we should command dominion over our peers (fellow cavers) and just because person "A" may be in favour of limiting and restricting access to a cave (for conservation reasons) that does not and should not mean that they can or should.

Ian
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Offline graham

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #183 on: March 20, 2013, 11:37:09 am »

In which case, those of us who care about the condition of our caves should apply the precautionary principle and limit the amount of usage our caves get.


But what gives a caver the right to "limit access" to other cavers.  How do you know that I won't be just as careful if not more careful than yourself when it comes to applying the "precautionary principle"?

Who said anything about rights? I didn't. However, I do thing that someone who brings a beautiful* cave to light has a duty to do all they can to keep it beautiful.


*substitute adjective of choice: interesting, important, etc.
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Offline notdavidgilmour

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #184 on: March 20, 2013, 11:56:05 am »


Who said anything about rights? I didn't. However, I do thing that someone who brings a beautiful* cave to light has a duty to do all they can to keep it beautiful.

*substitute adjective of choice: interesting, important, etc.


I feel "jasonbirder" has already given an excellent response.

I've no interest in limiting my Caving activity...in fact i'm rather fond of maximising it...

Besides where's the logic...if there's no access to caves...what exactly are we preserving them for?
I do it because i can, I can because I want to, I want to because you said I couldn't.

Offline Ian Adams

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #185 on: March 20, 2013, 12:03:03 pm »
I do thing that someone who brings a beautiful* cave to light has a duty to do all they can to keep it beautiful.

I would probably go a step further and suggest we all have a duty ....  Might be minded to add "moral" in front of "duty".  :halo:

Might also like to see "all they can amended to all they reasonably can.

 :ang:

Ian
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Offline graham

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #186 on: March 20, 2013, 12:10:46 pm »

I feel "jasonbirder" has already given an excellent response.

I've no interest in limiting my Caving activity...in fact i'm rather fond of maximising it...

Besides where's the logic...if there's no access to caves...what exactly are we preserving them for?

I disagree Firstly 'maximising' might be taken to mean at all costs with all that implies.  Secondly, I don't think that anybody has suggested that there should be no access to caves.

So this is not an excellent response, it is one that uses hyperbole. That is all.
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Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #187 on: March 20, 2013, 12:37:03 pm »
He might be annoying you but he isn't a troll, he is a member of a caving club who clearly feels passionately about the subject being discussed. By accusing him of being a troll you are simply attempting to diminish the credibility of his views in the eyes of others. Cheap tactic, Chris.

Being a member of a caving club and being someone who feels passionately about the subject being discussed doesn't not a troll make. I think/know he is doing quite a good job at diminishing the credibility of his views in the eyes of others without much intervention from me.

Offline blackholesun

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #188 on: March 20, 2013, 12:49:07 pm »
Some of this reads more of a discussion into how to have a discussion. Accusations of people using the straw man fallacy and the false dichotomy seem to arise (though not with those names) more than any specific caves. The ad hominem attack seems to be a recent addition.

Anyway, it seems that there are many who would like to be able to access caves that are on CROW land (such as on Fountains Fell) without permits or booking. I think that many cavers would like to to cross CROW land and cave rather than just look at the entrance, in the same way that climbers (probably) are able cross the land and climb rather than just look at the crags. (Silly suggestion: Either turn up to a cave with a permit, or a rack and a pair of halves.)
However caving is not mentioned in the CROW legislation. Thus, surely this is just a legal issue? Is there a way of clarifying a piece of legislation? Any legal experts here?

As for gates, I don't see that they would legally have to be removed. A landowner may obtain permission to build on their land and if they were once allowed a gate or even a lump of concrete on the cave entrance, then they presumably still would after any clarification. AFAIK, CROW gives you a right to roam, not a right to dictate what is built where.

Offline Alex

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #189 on: March 20, 2013, 01:19:22 pm »
God I losing the will to live reading this. Why does everyone have to be point scoring off ofeach other.

As for something I read (who knows where it was now) If explore anything and find something fantasic I would wan't to share it with the world and would not want to limit the access to do this. I don't understand the mentality of restricting access, otherwise no point in finding the darn thing.

Off to descend a pitch without a rope as my will has failed...
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Offline Pony

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #190 on: March 20, 2013, 01:21:04 pm »
With regards to the Hull Pot part of this thread, that is something that has really goy my goat for some years now. I can potter up to Hull and climb, maybe not totaly legal, but it seems to be tollerated. Potter up to go caving, yes not a classic I ll grant, but a permit is required and insurance.
 How has caving become a sport that requires this burocracy? All the answers are well documented in past events but they were 40/50 years ago. Times,attitudes and most importantly rights have changed. I appreciate the major land owners have remained the same, but in a number cases the situation above is present on their property.
 It seems to me since the implementation of CROW climbers have got out there and got on with it what with the new routes reported on CROW land.

Offline Alex

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #191 on: March 20, 2013, 01:24:40 pm »
Its simple Pony, its because we spend too much time bickering with each other then trying to change things, where as the climbers got together and got things changed. Now wheres that pitch...
Anything I say is represents my own opinion and not that of a any club/organisation that I am a member of (unless its good of course)

Offline gus horsley

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #192 on: March 20, 2013, 01:31:34 pm »
However caving is not mentioned in the CROW legislation. Thus, surely this is just a legal issue? Is there a way of clarifying a piece of legislation? Any legal experts here?

It is in the legislation:  "As the CRoW Act covers access for the purposes of open-air recreation, pot holing and caving are not included in the right"

Offline blackholesun

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #193 on: March 20, 2013, 01:39:50 pm »
Ah, I see. That explains a few things and renders most of my post null.

Offline Pony

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #194 on: March 20, 2013, 01:57:05 pm »
With regards to Gus' quote. How about Hollywood Bowl a Giggleswick and of course Victoria Cave. Sorry bud couldn't resist, slack day and all that

Offline TheBitterEnd

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #195 on: March 20, 2013, 02:00:57 pm »
However caving is not mentioned in the CROW legislation. Thus, surely this is just a legal issue? Is there a way of clarifying a piece of legislation? Any legal experts here?

It is in the legislation:  "As the CRoW Act covers access for the purposes of open-air recreation, pot holing and caving are not included in the right"

Gus - where is that in the legislation (Act/Regulation/Order and paragraph please)? It is in a guidance note from the Countryside Commission for Wales. What is the applicability of the  Countryside Commission for Wales to English CROW land.

It seems to me there is a lot of wishful thinking about this "Open Air Recreation" element of the act. Google does not seem to know of any legal precedent for "Open Air Recreation" and as I have previously pointed out only the courts can decide the meaning of "Open Air Recreation". What would "Closed Air Recreation" be?

I suspect the drafters of the legislation used the term "Open Air" to exclude vehicles, caravans and temporary building etc. but given that "Camping" is explicitly in the list of exclusions it would seem that even they were not too sure what "Open air recreation on foot" really meant.

Furthermore it still does not address the Hull/Alum/Rowten (Lancaster? Mistral?) issue. A court would need to decide. If someone had a strong financial drive to do so they would challenge the CCW statement (so it won't happen WRT caving).
« Last Edit: March 20, 2013, 02:10:19 pm by TheBitterEnd »
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Offline Les W

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #196 on: March 20, 2013, 02:02:09 pm »
It is in the legislation:  "As the CRoW Act covers access for the purposes of open-air recreation, pot holing and caving are not included in the right"

Where is this in the legislation Gus?
I have looked at the relevant Act of Parliament and cannot see it...  :unsure:
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Offline graham

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #197 on: March 20, 2013, 02:35:45 pm »

... If explore anything and find something fantasic I would wan't to share it with the world and would not want to limit the access to do this. I don't understand the mentality of restricting access, otherwise no point in finding the darn thing.


Do you think that the original discoverers of Easter Grotto necessarily agree with you?
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Offline gus horsley

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #198 on: March 20, 2013, 02:58:50 pm »
It is in the legislation:  "As the CRoW Act covers access for the purposes of open-air recreation, pot holing and caving are not included in the right"

Where is this in the legislation Gus?
I have looked at the relevant Act of Parliament and cannot see it...  :unsure:

Oops, looked at the wrong thing.  It's in the CCW legislation. 

Offline blackholesun

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #199 on: March 20, 2013, 03:45:46 pm »
Then, if it really isn't in the wording of the act, for those who want to cave freely on CROW land, surely the top priority is trying to find a way to clarify whether caving is covered by the legislation or not.

Does anyone else think this is worth trying and has any ideas about how to do so?

 

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