Author Topic: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things  (Read 123320 times)

Offline NewStuff

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #325 on: March 24, 2013, 08:52:34 pm »
How in the hell do You reach up and pull "entitlement" out of Your arse based on that?

Might have had something to do with the threats of criminal damage, don't you think.

What threats? I'm saying I can understand that some people get that pissed off with the situation, and just say "fuck it", and bypass the system in their own way. I do NOT condone cutting off locks, do not try to tar me with that brush. Has Your reading comprehension gone walkies again?

Son, if you don't condone it, then don't fucking mention it. So doing in such a weasally manner is the sort of tactic that gives Daily Mail journalists a bad name.

Stop with the "son" tone of voice. I'm easily your equal.

I will mention it, and I don't condone it. It does however, happen, and I can see why. I am not, nor do I want to be a Journalist. I mention it because it is a direct result of people being unhappy with access, and I can see it happening more often in the future, and that's not something I want to see happen. It's is very related to the topic on discussion. Use a little bit of logic and foresight, and think about how little it may be reduced to (eliminated entirely? Optimistic, but we can hope) should there be reasonable access for the majority.

See where it's going now? Drop the faux "I know best sonny" attitude, and actually discuss the matter at hand.
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Offline Blakethwaite

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #326 on: March 24, 2013, 08:57:14 pm »
The current system, in a large number of cases, is not reasonable.

I'm not wholly sure that statement is true as lots of people seem to manage to get out to all sorts of places on a regular basis but anyway and again, what are you actually going to do about it?

Ill manners & strange capitalisation on an internet forum will not move you one step closer to achieving your goal. Have you tried to join the local access body? Are you trying to negotiate with the local clubs? Setting up meetings in the village hall perhaps? Writing an article for Descent? Anything?

Offline graham

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #327 on: March 24, 2013, 09:03:25 pm »
Stop with the "son" tone of voice. I'm easily your equal.

 :coffee:

I will mention it, and I don't condone it. It does however, happen, and I can see why. I am not, nor do I want to be a Journalist. I mention it because it is a direct result of people being unhappy with access, and I can see it happening more often in the future, and that's not something I want to see happen. It's is very related to the topic on discussion. Use a little bit of logic and foresight, and think about how little it may be reduced to (eliminated entirely? Optimistic, but we can hope) should there be reasonable access for the majority.

Reasonable access for the majority exists now.

See where it's going now? Drop the faux "I know best sonny" attitude, and actually discuss the matter at hand.

I came back into this thread to discuss the matter in hand which, at that point, was the attitude that some cavers have that they have a god-given right to enter other people's land wherever and whenever they want. They don't have that right and should learn to live with that instead of throwing their toys out of the pram and threatening to cause criminal damage.
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Offline paul

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #328 on: March 24, 2013, 09:05:09 pm »
Global Moderator Comment We all know that the subject is an emotive one but as Jopo has already pointed out, lets keep the personal slanging matches out of what is supposed to be a discussion.
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Offline NewStuff

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #329 on: March 24, 2013, 09:09:18 pm »
The current system, in a large number of cases, is not reasonable.

I'm not wholly sure that statement is true as lots of people seem to manage to get out to all sorts of places on a regular basis but anyway and again, what are you actually going to do about it?

Ill manners & strange capitalisation on an internet forum will not move you one step closer to achieving your goal. Have you tried to join the local access body? Are you trying to negotiate with the local clubs? Setting up meetings in the village hall perhaps? Writing an article for Descent? Anything?

Yes. As mentioned above, I am currently trying to open 2 new holes in the ground, so anyone with BCA can access them, with the minimum of trouble. My life does not revolve solely around posting on fora. I have a phone, email, and I can even social networking with which I can talk to landowners should I not be able to get there to talk to them in person. If the system was reasonable, would people have to resort to cutting off gates? It's a hell of a lot more hassle than, I don't know, going underground and exploring?

When did this thread descend to Grammar-nazi levels of trolling about capitalisation?

Graham -
Again, at what point did anyone in this thread threaten to cut off gates? I haven't seen a single post that does, mine included.
Reasonable access for the majority does not exist. If it did, this thread would not exist, let alone trundle on for fourteen bloody pages.
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Offline NigR

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #330 on: March 24, 2013, 09:15:13 pm »
Son, if you don't condone it, then don't fucking mention it.

Yep, that's the way ahead.

Bad things happen but please don't talk about them, let's all pretend they are not really happening at all.

Do you really think that's the best way to make the bad things go away?

How about considering why they are happening as a starting point and then trying to find ways to ensure they do not happen again?

Somewhat more constructive than trying to hide from reality, don't you think?

Offline graham

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #331 on: March 24, 2013, 09:25:10 pm »
Maybe, if all cavers who have knowledge of criminal acts by other cavers were to report them to the police, then instances of law-breaking by cavers would be drastically reduced.

Just a thought.
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Offline Blakethwaite

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #332 on: March 24, 2013, 09:27:08 pm »
Ho Hum.
Well your, 'Pissing off Empire Builders, one post at a time' tagline marked you out as a potential troll from the start though amusingly the only person who seems getting to themselves caught in a tizz is you....

To keep on topic though, its still not clear what you intend to do. We all have phones and social networking sites available to us but that doesn't mean we're using them to do anything substantive. Your answers are time and again full of bluster but without meaningful content.

Offline NigR

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #333 on: March 24, 2013, 09:31:43 pm »
Maybe, if all cavers who have knowledge of criminal acts by other cavers were to report them to the police, then instances of law-breaking by cavers would be drastically reduced.

Yes, that's a good idea.

Any takers?

Offline NewStuff

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #334 on: March 24, 2013, 09:36:56 pm »
Ho Hum.
Well your, 'Pissing off Empire Builders, one post at a time' tagline marked you out as a potential troll from the start though amusingly the only person who seems getting to themselves caught in a tizz is you....

My tagline is an advertisement of what I do, and an indication of what I intend to achieve, as already stated, reasonable access, which despite arguments to the contrary, is not the present situation. If was, gate cutting would not be an issue.

To keep on topic though, its still not clear what you intend to do. We all have phones and social networking sites available to us but that doesn't mean we're using them to do anything substantive. Your answers are time and again full of bluster but without meaningful content.
I thought I was quite clear. In the immediate term,  I'm attempting to open up access to 2 new places for anyone with BCA, and capable of following a couple of simple wishes of the landowner. In the long-term, I would like to see holes on CRoW land explicitly allowed under the act.

Maybe, if all cavers who have knowledge of criminal acts by other cavers were to report them to the police, then instances of law-breaking by cavers would be drastically reduced.

Just a thought.

I don't know anyone who has, or will admit to it. I do know it happens, and it's not done by magical gate-removing faeries. Why though, would you want to cure the symptoms (removal of gates), rather than the cause (no access)? Surely better access will eliminate, or at the very least, drastically reduce, the instances of this happening?
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Offline John S

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #335 on: March 24, 2013, 09:40:19 pm »

Under the CROW Act people can walk, responsibly and subject to some common sense
restrictions, over areas of open country and registered common land in England and Wales.

These areas are included in the access land shown on OS Explorer maps and on the Crow
Access Maps website.


You have a right to walk OVER access land. Not UNDER access land

QED

I think you missed the meaning of over here. Really the covering version of over, maybe a better term as we know over has several different meanings. We know its not over as in fly over as hang gliding is not allowed but is it really the over/under version? Not with the comma and sub sentence between the walk and over.

So I have not seen anything that says caving is excluded from CRoW.

Offline graham

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #336 on: March 24, 2013, 09:53:38 pm »

... the cause (no access) ...


Certainly, there are one or two caves in the UK to which there is no access. Lamb Lair is one, a recent find in S. Wales that soon had its gate forcibly removed is another.

But they are very few and far between.
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Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #337 on: March 24, 2013, 10:08:18 pm »
Would it be reasonably accurate to say that 99.9% of UK caves can be visited?

Offline NewStuff

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #338 on: March 24, 2013, 10:18:29 pm »
Would it be reasonably accurate to say that 99.9% of UK caves can be visited?

Reasonably? No.
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Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #339 on: March 24, 2013, 10:20:11 pm »
Very, then.

Offline NewStuff

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #340 on: March 24, 2013, 10:29:10 pm »
I meant accessed in a reasonable manner. The answer is no to either though.

The problems are pretty numerous. Club only access, warden only schemes without wardens available, keys that get "lost", simple ignoring of requests, and outright refusals if You are not a member of the controlling club. I dare say others can add more, but those are thing I have either come across, or have happened directly to friends.
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Offline graham

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #341 on: March 24, 2013, 10:37:04 pm »
S'funny none of them things have ever happened to me.
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Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #342 on: March 24, 2013, 10:41:52 pm »
The problems are pretty numerous.

Your problems seem pretty spurious actually.

Offline NewStuff

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #343 on: March 24, 2013, 10:56:06 pm »
Graham -
Most of the above have happened to me. A friend was the (repeated) recipient of the "lost" keys.

Chris -
I tell you what the problems are, as I and a friend have personally experienced, and you pull "spurious" out of a hat.
I do not lie... what the fuck could I expect to achieve from that? If I had to make up problems, then that would suggest access would be pretty good. As it is, see my reply to Graham.

At least come out and accuse me directly... spurious... for fucks sake...

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Offline cavermark

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #344 on: March 24, 2013, 11:21:30 pm »
I've generally found a calm, polite and patient approach will get you anywhere.

Offline graham

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #345 on: March 24, 2013, 11:25:40 pm »
I've generally found a calm, polite and patient approach will get you anywhere.

Quite agree. I sometimes wonder if failed enquiries have something to do with attitude.
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Offline Ian Adams

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #346 on: March 24, 2013, 11:34:54 pm »
Access problems are rife and just because some people don’t experience that does not mean others don’t.

I have found access so significantly frustrating that I have given up trying to arrange access in some cases (and this instance is with a BCA member club who, I understand, has an obligation to afford other BCA members entrance under the BCA terms.) I also find the CNCC difficult to deal with (notwithstanding I know others do not) – my clubs trip organiser was even told we could not have a permit for a CNCC “controlled” hole as we were not BCA members (the club has been a member for years).

One of my neighbouring clubs refuses access to ALL of their holes ALL of the time and the other is less than helpful.

South Wales trips have  hoops to jump through – one of our members was told his daughters BCA card was invalid because she is 15 and then he was told he could not take her into certain “controlled” caves. Additionally, he was told to cough up subs for him and her before he could be accommodated. That’s reasonable is it ?

Tell me this isn’t powerplay ?  Tell me this isn’t unreasonable ?

How would someone who had an interest in caving possibly manage to pursue their activity without agreeing to be policed ?  Why should someone have to be a BCA member to visit a cave? Why should someone be forced to leave their daughter outside a cave because a committee says “over 18’s only” ?   Why would the CNCC not consider CRoW as an opportunity to lighten the load for themselves and make access for all cavers easier (isn’t it their mandate to do so?).

This is about allowing access to caves on CRoW land NOT private land – and this thread is being repeatedly hijacked by antagonists hell bent of deflecting attention from a perfectly reasonable debate just so that they, prima facie, can keep their controls.

Geeze.

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Offline bograt

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #347 on: March 24, 2013, 11:39:14 pm »
As mentioned above, I am currently trying to open 2 new holes in the ground, so anyone with BCA can access them, with the minimum of trouble.

When you get access to these two holes, how are you going to ensure that everyone who goes down them has BCA cover, without initiating some form of control?
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Offline NewStuff

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #348 on: March 24, 2013, 11:47:06 pm »
I've generally found a calm, polite and patient approach will get you anywhere.

Quite agree. I sometimes wonder if failed enquiries have something to do with attitude.

Stop your poorly disguised sniping, I have a thick skin, so I suggest You come out and say what You want to.
As mentioned above, I am currently trying to open 2 new holes in the ground, so anyone with BCA can access them, with the minimum of trouble.

When you get access to these two holes, how are you going to ensure that everyone who goes down them has BCA cover, without initiating some form of control?

That's what I am currently talking about with the Landowner. When we find a mutually equitable solution, I'll be sure to point You at it. It may happen that BCA is not needed at all, provided common sense is used.
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Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #349 on: March 24, 2013, 11:53:41 pm »
As a former C&A numpty the following case law was frequently useful in establishing access for cavers on the grounds that access was unauthorised, but tolerated (i.e. the landowner wouldn't do anything about it other than say access was prohibited), and in so doing meant they were largely absolved of liability if the fan and the manure met at full speed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomlinson_v_Congleton_Borough_Council

You may find that access is easy to arrange if access is denied in such a manner. There's irony for you.

 

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