Author Topic: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things  (Read 123322 times)

Offline NewStuff

  • Vocal proponent of Open Access
  • junky
  • ****
  • Posts: 795
  • www.dddwhcc.com
    • Deep Dark Dirty WetHoles
Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #350 on: March 24, 2013, 11:59:27 pm »
As a former C&A numpty the following case law was frequently useful in establishing access for cavers on the grounds that access was unauthorised, but tolerated (i.e. the landowner wouldn't do anything about it other than say access was prohibited), and in so doing meant they were largely absolved of liability if the fan and the manure met at full speed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomlinson_v_Congleton_Borough_Council

You may find that access is easy to arrange if access is denied in such a manner. There's irony for you.

Thank You for the constructive link, I had looked at that, but had not realised it had been used successfully. That's the kind of response I had been hoping for. It's not ideal, but it may help if it comes down to that.
Permission? Wassat den?

Offline droid

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2340
  • WMRG
Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #351 on: March 25, 2013, 07:49:53 am »
NewStuff.

You've been banging on about iniquitous access arrangements since you joined this forum. You claim to be plain spoken and honest. You claim to be pissing off the Empire builders.

So put your mouth where your money is and name them.

Which clubs are denying access for their own ends?

Which caves/mines are involved?

It's got to be a pretty big list, given that there are thousands of caes with easy access to all....
No longer 'Exceptionally antagonistic' 'Deliberately inflammatory'

Offline crickleymal

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1048
Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #352 on: March 25, 2013, 08:03:06 am »
I'm running out of popcorn.
Malc
Rusted and ropy, dog-eared old copy.
Vintage and classic or just plain Jurassic:
all words to describe me.

Offline droid

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2340
  • WMRG
Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #353 on: March 25, 2013, 08:28:23 am »
I'll email you some.
No longer 'Exceptionally antagonistic' 'Deliberately inflammatory'

Offline NewStuff

  • Vocal proponent of Open Access
  • junky
  • ****
  • Posts: 795
  • www.dddwhcc.com
    • Deep Dark Dirty WetHoles
Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #354 on: March 25, 2013, 09:19:08 am »
Which clubs are denying access for their own ends?

I said in my first post on the topic.
http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=14948.msg193622#msg193622

GCC and NWCC, between them, that's not a small number of mines.

There are others, but not to the degree that  they cause issues. I'm not naming individual mines or caves just yet, but a quick ask around of anyone even a little familiar with N.Wales should pop up a fair number of names.

Permission? Wassat den?

Offline droid

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2340
  • WMRG
Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #355 on: March 25, 2013, 09:21:43 am »
So it's not a national problem, it's a local NorthWalian problem?
No longer 'Exceptionally antagonistic' 'Deliberately inflammatory'

Offline NewStuff

  • Vocal proponent of Open Access
  • junky
  • ****
  • Posts: 795
  • www.dddwhcc.com
    • Deep Dark Dirty WetHoles
Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #356 on: March 25, 2013, 09:30:57 am »
I've heard of plenty of others, but I can't say, as I do not have direct, first-hand experience of them. Others may chime in with names (and I encourage them to do so), but I suspect that a lot won't because of the likelihood that already problematic access will turn into no access at all because of childish retribution to the poster and/or their club.

Permission? Wassat den?

Offline owd git

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1421
Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #357 on: March 25, 2013, 09:33:50 am »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomlinson_v_Congleton_Borough_Council

You may find that access is easy to arrange if access is denied in such a manner. There's irony for you.
[/quote]
Oooh a red Herring, how unexpected!
I, too have run out of popcorn, Can I sue?
Hen racer? 2000 world hen racing champion

Offline droid

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2340
  • WMRG
Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #358 on: March 25, 2013, 09:43:57 am »
I've heard of plenty of others, but I can't say, as I do not have direct, first-hand experience of them. Others may chime in with names (and I encourage them to do so), but I suspect that a lot won't because of the likelihood that already problematic access will turn into no access at all because of childish retribution to the poster and/or their club.

So you are making a sweeping genreralisation.

Because I haven't experienced first hand, or heard of (from known and trusted sources) more than a handful of suck problems.

Looks to me like you've been drafted in to provide support for others that are 'outnumbered' by those that don't see a general problem.
No longer 'Exceptionally antagonistic' 'Deliberately inflammatory'

Offline zomjon

  • junky
  • ****
  • Posts: 784
Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #359 on: March 25, 2013, 09:46:11 am »
Droid, I must admit, I've always found WMRG seem to like collecting private access and as for Good Luck Mine...

Offline NewStuff

  • Vocal proponent of Open Access
  • junky
  • ****
  • Posts: 795
  • www.dddwhcc.com
    • Deep Dark Dirty WetHoles
Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #360 on: March 25, 2013, 09:57:39 am »
Drafted in? What is this, the fucking Army?

I'm me, I post what I do on my own accord. There are numerous word of mouth reports of access issues. Hopefully people will realise that this needs to be out in the open, and post up where they have issues. It *is* a large problem, or this wouldn't be a contentious issue at all. If the current system worked, I'd be behind it all the way. But it doesn't, at least not very well, hence my posting here, as I feel strongly about it, and actually want to do something about it.

I've heard of plenty of others, but I can't say, as I do not have direct, first-hand experience of them. Others may chime in with names (and I encourage them to do so), but I suspect that a lot won't because of the likelihood that already problematic access will turn into no access at all because of childish retribution to the poster and/or their club.

So you are making a sweeping genreralisation.

Because I haven't experienced first hand, or heard of (from known and trusted sources) more than a handful of suck problems.

Looks to me like you've been drafted in to provide support for others that are 'outnumbered' by those that don't see a general problem.
Permission? Wassat den?

Offline graham

  • Retired
  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 10942
  • UBSS, Speleo-Club de Perigueux, GSG, SUI
    • UBSS
Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #361 on: March 25, 2013, 10:00:06 am »
I've heard of plenty of others, but I can't say, as I do not have direct, first-hand experience of them. Others may chime in with names (and I encourage them to do so), but I suspect that a lot won't because of the likelihood that already problematic access will turn into no access at all because of childish retribution to the poster and/or their club.

So you are making a sweeping genreralisation.

Because I haven't experienced first hand, or heard of (from known and trusted sources) more than a handful of suck problems.

Looks to me like you've been drafted in to provide support for others that are 'outnumbered' by those that don't see a general problem.

Agreed

It seems to me that there are two quite separate scenarios being played out here:

There is one area of the country where there may - I cannot say with any more certainty than that as I do not have first-hand experience - be a specific problem.

Then there is the rest of the country where there is no particular problem, certainly no large scale one, but there are a few individuals with a vast sense of entitlement who do not wish to respect the rights of others.
Caving is for Life not just for Christmas

Offline Stuart Anderson

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2052
  • Yorkshire Subterranean Society - A.N.U.S.
Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #362 on: March 25, 2013, 10:12:59 am »
Here's another thought for those that want open access everywhere...

Is anyone on here arguing for that? I'm certainly talking just those caves on CRoW, and specifically the nonsense of areas on CRoW being shut for "cavers" yet I can walk up them any time of year, barring any exceptional closures (grouse shooting etc). If I'm in the vicinity of say Clapham and I fancy a quick mid week jaunt into Bar Pot or some such the only thing holding me back is the lack of a permit. Which I'm told is easy to get and permission never refused... So looking from the other end of the telescope, why the need for a permit? Wouldn't a compromise situation be a log book at the estate office?

Quote
If a landowner has made it clear he doesn't want cavers entering a hole on his land, he's still not going to want it even if it's made open access. What to do? Here's what to do:- get the tractor and back-actor and solve the problem permanently.


Well, good luck backfilling GG (I have no idea if Ingleborough Estate has ever made it clear about banning access to the GG system. I'm just making a rather daft and extended point)!?! Besides they'd possibly end up in more trouble than it's worth; owning land doesn't necessarily equal being able to do what you want with it.


I've roamed and rambled and I've followed my footsteps
To the sparkling sands of her diamond deserts
And all around me a voice was sounding
This land was made for you and me

Offline Brains

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2345
Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #363 on: March 25, 2013, 10:15:28 am »
You wont get in Parrys Mountain unless you are welsh...
Seems a lot of those in favour of the status quo know their own patch well, including landowners and access controllers and hance have few problems.
As a rare vivitor to the 'dips I have given up on hoping to visit certain places owing to the plethora of petty rules and regulations (besides the only proper cave is Swildons...  ;D ). 
Perhaps those in favour of the Status Quo would like to have a visit to the system in N Wales accessed via mine shafts and workings that have intersected large natural passages. Of course we will never know here on UKC as trip reports, photos and surveys are not for dissemination - dont think the name is even allowed to be mentioned. A 330' entrance shaft, cross cut to internal shafts with fixed ladders, to lower level to boulder choke into the very extensive (miles) of natural

The antis do seem very much like "We are ok, thank you, so you can lump it"

Offline Stuart Anderson

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2052
  • Yorkshire Subterranean Society - A.N.U.S.
Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #364 on: March 25, 2013, 10:15:49 am »
I think you pair should slow down a bit and impose on yourselves a 20min delay before you press send. This forum is supposed to be for info and discussion not personal slagging - however well dressed up.


Jopo

:thumbsup:



I've roamed and rambled and I've followed my footsteps
To the sparkling sands of her diamond deserts
And all around me a voice was sounding
This land was made for you and me

Offline jasonbirder

  • forum star
  • ****
  • Posts: 726
  • Orpheus Caving Club
Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #365 on: March 25, 2013, 10:57:39 am »
Seems we have a lot of different issues been raised and discussed...
And opinion has been polarised into those who suggest changes to some of the Status Quo and thos who oppose it...and feel that concession on any issue raised undermines their argument.

I don't have a particular axe to grind...I'm a club caver...and enjoy being a club member...and likewise I agree that the various C&A officers of the regional bodies do a bl**dy difficult task and are don't get nearly the thanks they deserve...

But I would also say there are also things that could be improved...

Like most people I'd agree that there are certain caves where a leader system has been put in place for various conservation reasons...IE Otter Hole, Upper Flood etc and I don't think many people have a problem with that...
However I would also say there are certain systems where clubs have negotiated access and seem reluctant to allow general access to cavers...which seems to go against the general spirit of the BCA...I'm thinking of examples like Ogof Llyn Parc or some of the mines that WMRG like to winch people in and out of...(just examples...there are many more)
That DOESN'T mean I instantly want to allow large groups of underage scouts led by a paid instructor to be allowed to trash Charterhouse Cave without any restriction...but it DOES mean that there are some access agreements that are negotiated by clubs for the purpose of control rather than to meet landowner or conservation requirements and I don't think thats a particularly good situation...

Similarly I would say there are Cave systems that have relatively restrictive access agreements (presumably negtiated pre-CROW and I am assuming that was the best that could have been agreed at the time) that could well be re-visited in light of the fact every man and there dog is allowed to walk up to the entrance...EXCEPT cavers....suggesting this doesn't mean I don't appreciate what the regional bodies do...just that situations are dynamic and can be reviewed...even if people want to nit-pick over the legal niceties of CRoW - it surely gives us a stronger negotiating position with landowners...

Similarly while I've had nothing but good experiences with most of the landowners/tennents i've met and many are very caver friendly...there are some that are either plain greedy/obstructive - and some that are just huge Landowners that from historical accident own great swathes of land that should in all honesty belong to the general public and manage it for a very narrow set of interests...and if left to their own devices probably wouldn't let the likes of you and I anywhere near it...so to say that a landowners interests and choices should always be paramount and sacrosanct is just plain silly...we're not victorians and don't always need to doff our cap to the landed gentry ;)

Anyway...while not particularly coherent...thats just a brain dump of some of my thoughts!!!!


Offline droid

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2340
  • WMRG
Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #366 on: March 25, 2013, 12:01:41 pm »
Rather amusingly, the one mine WMRG didn't winch had an Orpheus member on the trip.... :kiss2:
No longer 'Exceptionally antagonistic' 'Deliberately inflammatory'

Offline TheBitterEnd

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1546
  • KCC
    • KCC - Join an active club
Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #367 on: March 25, 2013, 12:09:09 pm »

Is anyone on here arguing for that? I'm certainly talking just those caves on CRoW, and specifically the nonsense of areas on CRoW being shut for "cavers" yet I can walk up them any time of year, barring any exceptional closures (grouse shooting etc). If I'm in the vicinity of say Clapham and I fancy a quick mid week jaunt into Bar Pot or some such the only thing holding me back is the lack of a permit. Which I'm told is easy to get and permission never refused... So looking from the other end of the telescope, why the need for a permit? Wouldn't a compromise situation be a log book at the estate office?


I suspect that the main protagonists in this debate do not want that level of clarity, they would much rather obfuscate and make the whole situation seem complex and intractable.
'Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.' — Mark Twain

Offline Ian Adams

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1240
  • UCET
    • UCET Caving Club (North Wales)
Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #368 on: March 25, 2013, 12:24:08 pm »

Is anyone on here arguing for that? I'm certainly talking just those caves on CRoW, and specifically the nonsense of areas on CRoW being shut for "cavers" yet I can walk up them any time of year, barring any exceptional closures (grouse shooting etc). If I'm in the vicinity of say Clapham and I fancy a quick mid week jaunt into Bar Pot or some such the only thing holding me back is the lack of a permit. Which I'm told is easy to get and permission never refused... So looking from the other end of the telescope, why the need for a permit? Wouldn't a compromise situation be a log book at the estate office?


I suspect that the main protagonists in this debate do not want that level of clarity, they would much rather obfuscate and make the whole situation seem complex and intractable.

.... And are managing it very well  ;)

Ian
A door, once opened, may be stepped through in either direction.

Offline droid

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2340
  • WMRG
Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #369 on: March 25, 2013, 12:38:42 pm »
Situation seems pretty simple to me.

Access details are published in the guidebooks, read and act.

There's a saying: if it ain't broke don't fix it. If it's broke in N wales then fix that. Why cock about with workable systems elsewhere?
No longer 'Exceptionally antagonistic' 'Deliberately inflammatory'

Offline Pitlamp

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 5390
Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #370 on: March 25, 2013, 12:42:29 pm »
You lot all seem grumpy lately; did the snow stop you getting under't sod this weekend or something?

For what it's worth, I've generally found that quietly having a polite word with whoever manages access usually does the trick. Here's an example from a few years ago.

A bunch of us from the north fancied a trip in Reservoir Hole. When we mentioned this to some of our mates in the Wessex they just laughed and said "You've got no chance; even us locals can't get in there". Undeterred, I found out that the main person was Willie Stanton. So I wrote a short letter to him, with an SAE, asking if it might be possible to visit this cave and suggesting some dates. Within a few days I had a really encouraginging letter back telling me we could go on any of the dates I'd mentioned and also giving lots of helpful information. When we called at his place for the key he made us very welcome and gave us further advice. It was a really enjoyable trip and when we told him so whilst returning the key, he beamed.

Interestingly, ever since then I've kept hearing even Mendip cavers complaining bitterly about it being impossible to get on a trip in Reservoir. I wonder if they ever put in even the merest effort? Or was it just that they were perpetuating a common myth? I don't know - and, very sadly, Willie passed away not long ago. There are massive extensions in there as well now and I don't know the current arrangements. But I hope that the above shows that if you're decent with most folk, they're usually really helpful. After all, they're cavers - and most cavers are decent folk when it comes down to it.

I admit I've not followed this topic - and I very much defend the right of my fellow cavers to query anything which they think isn't working well. But the suggestion that all this is actually about North Wales caught my eye. If this is the case, maybe all this could be put in a more appropriate place on the forum?

Offline droid

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2340
  • WMRG
Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #371 on: March 25, 2013, 12:48:48 pm »
You lot all seem grumpy lately;
For what it's worth, I've generally found that quietly having a polite word with whoever manages access usually does the trick.

I'm grumpy ALL the time :wall: :lol:

And you follow the course I'd advocate.

There seems a lot of bitterness in NigR and NewStuff's posts. Bittertness is never a good starting point for any sort of discussion IMHO :)
No longer 'Exceptionally antagonistic' 'Deliberately inflammatory'

Offline Pitlamp

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 5390
Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #372 on: March 25, 2013, 12:53:45 pm »
Don't be grumpy Droid; you've got a long weekend coming up!   :thumbsup:

Offline JessopSmythe

  • obsessive maniac
  • ***
  • Posts: 383
  • SWCC
    • South & Mid Wales Cave Rescue Team
Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #373 on: March 25, 2013, 01:15:43 pm »
You wont get in Parrys Mountain unless you are welsh...

I seem to remember a certain Midlands caving club talking about some very enjoyable trips in there. None of them sounded very Welsh to me!
"If at first you don't succeed, try again. If that doesn't work, quit. There's no point being a damn fool about it" Homer Simpson

Offline graham

  • Retired
  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 10942
  • UBSS, Speleo-Club de Perigueux, GSG, SUI
    • UBSS
Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #374 on: March 25, 2013, 01:17:10 pm »
Situation seems pretty simple to me.

Access details are published in the guidebooks, read and act.

There's a saying: if it ain't broke don't fix it. If it's broke in N wales then fix that. Why cock about with workable systems elsewhere?

 :thumbsup:
Caving is for Life not just for Christmas

 

Main Menu

Forum Home Help Search