Author Topic: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things  (Read 118432 times)

Online droid

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #375 on: March 25, 2013, 01:18:01 pm »
If they were from the Midlands they wouldn't have sounded very English, either....,
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Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #376 on: March 25, 2013, 01:30:42 pm »
If they were from the Midlands they wouldn't have sounded very English, either....,

 :lol:

Offline Ian Adams

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #377 on: March 25, 2013, 02:02:25 pm »
It’s not about North Wales … that is the doing of “Droid” who has been exceptionally antagonistic, specifically demanding that people “name names” which is clearly incendiary and has thrown the thread “off course” (I did say “they” were managing it very well).

It’s about access to caves on CRoW land and things HAVE changed since the advent of the CNCC and the permit system et al. The original suggestion (which has long since been lost in a mass of blather) was to look at the possibility of extending CRoW to include caves. Since CRoW is relatively new and times have changed, the “it ain’t broke” analogy is not relevant.

Sensible debate on the pro’s and con’s of such a suggestion is what was being mooted and, having followed the thread closely, there are arguments for both sides. It is actually possible to debate those issues sensibly and even possible to reach a consensus without the mindless and deliberate hijacking for whatever motivation.

(as far fecthed as that might seem)

Ian
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Online dudley bug

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #378 on: March 25, 2013, 02:03:47 pm »
If they were from the Midlands they wouldn't have sounded very English, either....,

 :lol:

 :spank: :spank: :spank: :spank: :spank:

Watch and learn..


« Last Edit: March 25, 2013, 02:23:14 pm by Rhys, Reason: fixed quotes »
www.ogof.org.uk/ South Wales Cave Mapping

Online droid

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #379 on: March 25, 2013, 02:19:22 pm »
 :lol: :lol: :lol:

I'm in a Wolverhampton bike club...full of bloody yamyams :o

Jackalpup...what do you imagine the 'other things' part of the thread title means? 'Exceptionally antagonistic'? No. Just wondering if a self-proclaimed 'say it like it is' person is prepared to say it like it is. He is, so no problem.

Since no-one appears to be able to give a definitive answer as to whether caves are included in 'right to roam' the entire exercise is rather theoretical anyway.
I suppose it gives some people the chance to show their discussion techniques. And others to take the piss. Bit like a typical night down the hut, eh? ;D
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Offline Ian Adams

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #380 on: March 25, 2013, 02:26:03 pm »
Droid,

I referred to the original thread – this thread was created by a moderator and titled by him.

And, of course there is no definitive answer which is exactly why David Rose raised it in the first place and pondered the merits of looking into it.

Ian
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Online droid

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #381 on: March 25, 2013, 02:37:57 pm »
Reading his post, it seems to me he was advocating a national system for negotiating cave access. The reference to 'right to roam underground' was a bit of an add-on.

I argued then, and still argue now, that the local system we have generally works fine. A couple of people have difficulties with one area. That doesn't mean that the system needs dismantling for the whole country.

Does it? :-\
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Offline jasonbirder

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #382 on: March 25, 2013, 02:49:39 pm »
Actually...having been to the pub for five pints at lunch has just given me a fantastic perspective on the CRoW issue...

If everyone that caves in CRow area's just volunteers to park, change and walk to a Cave entrance every once in a while (it'll only take half an hour before you go do the cave you've actually booked)...surely it will eventually make all access agrrements null and void...

"I saw cavers crossing my land to go to cave entrance x on Saturday...no permits were booked out...and two cars were parked up...can you have a look into it..." says landowner...

"Yup...just walkers...excercising their CRoW privalages...i've checked it out...its person x and y  in car reg abc123x just walking..no-one went underground..." says regional access officer

Give it a few months of that and no landowner will give a flying f*ck about who caves on his CRoW land...

Offline Ian Adams

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #383 on: March 25, 2013, 02:55:47 pm »
A couple of people have difficulties with one area. That doesn't mean that the system needs dismantling for the whole country.

Does it? :-\

That is a deliberately inflammatory remark. There are numberous people who have expressed concern or dis-satisfaction and you cannot quantity them as "a couple".

Neither is anyone suggesting dismantling the whole country - only looking at CRoW land which would (probably) make access and life much easier.

Ian

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Offline peterk

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #384 on: March 25, 2013, 02:56:49 pm »
The whole of the CROW element of this discussion hinges on the interpretation of open air recreation.  AFAIK the "legal" phrase first appeared  in the 1949 National Parks and Access to the Countryside:

59 Provision for public access to open country.

(1)The provisions of this Part of this Act shall have effect for enabling the public to have access for open-air recreation to open countryside

I would guess the phrase has just been used in subsequent legislation with no recognised need for a legal definition.  However since this act only came into being through a mass trespass and 5 imprisonments I would suggest that CROW is as good as it will get and that the current work by individuals, groups, clubs etc. sits very happily within access and property law

Offline JessopSmythe

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Re: Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #385 on: March 25, 2013, 03:18:17 pm »
Droid,

I referred to the original thread – this thread was created by a moderator and titled by him.

If I remember rightly, the original thread was specifically about access to Carno Addit and was split because of the discussion on CROW and other issues not relevant to Carno.

"If at first you don't succeed, try again. If that doesn't work, quit. There's no point being a damn fool about it" Homer Simpson

Offline Ian Adams

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #386 on: March 25, 2013, 03:26:43 pm »
Yes, but as I said, I was refering to David Rose's mooting of CRoW and his suggestion of looking into the possibilty of including caving ....

Ian
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Offline NigR

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #387 on: March 25, 2013, 03:37:29 pm »
And, of course there is no definitive answer which is exactly why David Rose raised it in the first place and pondered the merits of looking into it.

Reading his post, it seems to me he was advocating a national system for negotiating cave access. The reference to 'right to roam underground' was a bit of an add-on.

What Droid says could be construed as being correct if you limit yourself to reading David's initial post. However, if you look at the later ones (in particular his final post on page 4 of the Carno thread) you will see that Ian is much nearer the mark.

If I remember rightly, the original thread was specifically about access to Carno Addit and was split because of the discussion on CROW and other issues not relevant to Carno.

Again, if you look back at the original thread you will see that David went on to address various wider issues that he regarded as being important and in need of attention.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2013, 04:00:19 pm by NigR »

Offline John S

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #388 on: March 25, 2013, 04:00:48 pm »
There may be access to many caves but is the system actually working?

A club I belonged too had to join CNCC, CSCC, CCC to help it get permits - I think this may have changed. But I thought it was wrong when we were already a BCA member club.

We get a permit to a cave up on Leck Fell say. We get there and find 3 other parties without a permit already down the pot. Do we continue or find another cave we don't have a permit for?

Or  It  has rained and the cave we have a permit for is too wet. 500 mile round trip for nothing? No wonder Casterton Fell has problems with permits etc.

Then there are the caves with no access on CRoW land. Those small caves of Mossdale or Lancliffe (is Oddmire still accessible or not, been a while since I was over that way)

And access problems are only in North Wales !

Offline Badlad

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #389 on: March 25, 2013, 07:02:31 pm »

There are many cavers in the Dales who are unhappy with the access status quo, particularly on CRoW land.  I doubt many of them will voice their opinions on this forum, but please don't doubt they exist.

The CNCC, Council of Northern Caving Clubs, represent access for their member caving clubs but do not appear to represent other cavers interests.   This is well demonstrated by looking at the permit system for the CRoW land of Leck and Casterton Fells.  As a frequent visitor to these fells I estimate less than half the cavers who cave on these fells have the CNCC permit (see previous thread on Casterton Fell where no one had a permit on the sunday described).  The system therefore frustrates those that do have a permit as well as those who don't. 

Over recent years several aclaimed discoveries have been made on Leck Fell.  The final connection in the Three Counties System, Deaths Head to Lost Johns, Lost Pot to Boxhead and even Shep Pot.  To my knowledge not one of these hundreds of digging trips had a CNCC permit although they went on in the full glare of both local and national publicity.  This must demonstrate, if nothing else, that there is something wrong with the system and it is about time it came out into the open, rather than be a hidden frustration as it has been for years. 

Why not keep quiet and maintain the status quo that has been in place for years?  Hundreds ignore the permit system but that is alright as long as no one brings it out into the open.  This has been alluded to by other posts on this thread.  Unfortunately, instead of promoting a more open access policy, the CNCC has become more proactive of late in pursuing the easy target permit breakers such as young caving club members and professional cavers, and making onerous representations to the BCA and EN/NE.  Where will this end.

So who are these cavers who ignore the CNCC permit system?  They are not all the renegades they are made out to be.  Some are respected local cavers who feel the CNCC do not represent them, some are from clubs or close knit groups who are not members of CNCC, some are individuals who don't believe they need a permit on CRoW land, some are from member clubs who just don't bother with a permit when they are out caving with their mates, and some probably just don't give a hoot for small minded burocracy. 

I appreciate that many people also cave quite happily under the CNCC permit system.  It does suit some clubs and some digging teams.  However, lets also not kid ourselves that those in the 'know' can have access to these permits, printing them out on demand, when other clubs and groups have a more negative experience of obtaining permits.

I feel the frustration on this forum for those who are trying to get through to other cavers for whom the permit system works - it doesn't for a lot of people.  North Wales is a terrible, extreme example of an access system gone wrong, and those that maintain it should hang there heads in shame.  But there are many examples where restricting access has been the chosen position amongst caving groups rather than engaging a wider access strategy. 

There have been some well considered posts on this thread (by both sides) but also some lowly behaviour.  To those in support of open access to CRoW let's stay cool, make our points and rise above the jeers.

Offline Ian Adams

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #390 on: March 25, 2013, 07:42:38 pm »
Very nice post Badlad - thank you.

Ian
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Online cavemanmike

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #391 on: March 25, 2013, 07:49:34 pm »
 ;) ;) thought you'd say that , we where only discussing that this morning, someone must be spying on you

Offline NewStuff

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #392 on: March 25, 2013, 08:01:54 pm »
Droid and Graham - Stop trying to make out the problem is a localised North Wales one. It isn't, it's national, but worse in some places (a little light reading indicates that S.Wales has some pretty serious unresolved issues as well). Many people from many places are fed up. You are appearing a little desperate now, patting each other on the back at your latest attempt to belittle the problem, and pretend it's not a widespread issue.

Currently, it seems that I can go and walk up to an entrance, sit there, pass time, smoke some cigs, eat a bit of lunch etc... but I can't go in? What idiotic attempt at logic came up with that one?
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Online droid

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #393 on: March 25, 2013, 08:06:32 pm »
Very nice post Badlad - thank you.

Ian

Definitely not 'exceptionally antagonistic' or 'deliberately provocative', bur 'nice'.

Well it agrees with what you maintain so it must be correct.... :lol: :lol:

But does it? The system maiuntains access, so it works. It doesn't work for individuals, so modify the system....it's not a big 'tweak' to include individuals as well as clubs, is it? I'm not in CNCC so I can't say. But it doesn't seem to me to be an impossiblle thing.

NewStuff.....have you read Badlad's post?
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Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #394 on: March 25, 2013, 08:10:00 pm »
While some people are bickering and getting hot under the collar about the injustices of this world, many more are actually finding few problems in getting underground, relaxing and enjoying life. I think there's a lesson there for everyone.

Offline Smiley Alan

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #395 on: March 25, 2013, 08:11:36 pm »
The CNCC, Council of Northern Caving Clubs, represent access for their member caving clubs but do not appear to represent other cavers interests.   This is well demonstrated by looking at the permit system for the CRoW land of Leck and Casterton Fells.  As a frequent visitor to these fells I estimate less than half the cavers who cave on these fells have the CNCC permit (see previous thread on Casterton Fell where no one had a permit on the sunday described).  The system therefore frustrates those that do have a permit as well as those who don't. 
............

So who are these cavers who ignore the CNCC permit system?  They are not all the renegades they are made out to be.  Some are respected local cavers who feel the CNCC do not represent them, some are from clubs or close knit groups who are not members of CNCC, some are individuals who don't believe they need a permit on CRoW land, some are from member clubs who just don't bother with a permit when they are out caving with their mates, and some probably just don't give a hoot for small minded burocracy. 

There were probelms  recently with trips in the dales and BCA publised a statement  about it here :
http://british-caving.org.uk/conservation/Casterton%20Access%20Statement.pdf

it says if nesessary  BCA will take action against members who act  against the best intrests of British cavers. Is'nt there some new disiplinery action stuff being talked  about coming into operation soon ? I guess people who are posting here who seem anti CNCC/permits might need to think about  what they post


Offline Ian Adams

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #396 on: March 25, 2013, 08:50:01 pm »

Definitely not 'exceptionally antagonistic' or 'deliberately provocative', bur 'nice'.

Well it agrees with what you maintain so it must be correct.... :lol: :lol:

It was reasonably balanced and non-antagnostic, so was an early post by Jasonbirder which I thought was equally sensible. I have also seen a number of other posts which I thought were very sensible from people sat on the opposite side of the fence (one from Cap 'n' Chris springs to mind but there are others) but I don't agree with everything said and I doubt we will all ever agree .... they were, nevertheless, sensible posts and a value to the debate.

Unlike your posts which are blatent attempts to incite trouble, cause dissent and ridcule/derail the debate.

Ian
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Offline notdavidgilmour

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #397 on: March 25, 2013, 08:53:00 pm »
Droid seems to troll around the whole forum picking holes in my (and others') posts, however he has just had to eat humble pie on another thread  :ras:
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Online droid

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #398 on: March 25, 2013, 09:06:34 pm »
And was perfectly happy to do so.

 :beer2:

Posts to cause dissent? The dissent is already there. I haven't actually insulted anyone or made veiled threats. Just taken the piss out of people that seem to think they've got a monopoly on 'sensible' (ie 'agree with me') debating technique.

Jackalpup. You are being very selective in what you reply to, as well. That's my technique, too :lol: :lol:

I'm sorry if I don't take internet debates as seriously as you guys seem to. Entrenched positions masquerading as reasoned debate always amuse me. If/when i have anything serious to say, I always find it best to say it to someone that can actually do something about the problem, viz a rep on the CNCC, Charterhouse, etc etc. Tinternet isn't face to face. Nuances are missed. People get all brave and huffy.

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Offline Ian Adams

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #399 on: March 25, 2013, 09:21:49 pm »
I haven't actually insulted anyone or made veiled threats.

I didn't say you had ...

Just taken the piss out of people .....

Quite the point.

....that seem to think they've got a monopoly on 'sensible' (ie 'agree with me') debating technique.

Both sides do that - including you ..... Isn't that the starting premise of debate per se ?

Jackalpup. You are being very selective in what you reply to, as well.

I replied to you didn't I ?   (despite my reluctance to rise to your posturing). I also commended posts from the "otherside" - I even agree with some things Graham has raised (and just admitted it on the open forum).

I'm sorry if I don't take internet debates as seriously as you guys seem to.

Fine ... but would you mind allowing those who have a genuine interest (on both sides) to debate the issue without running interference ?

Ian
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