Author Topic: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things  (Read 123292 times)

Offline Pete K

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #650 on: April 01, 2013, 02:19:17 pm »
It is precisely these kind of "politics" (wait a year, then discuss etc etc) that causes so much ill-feeling because it is totally un-necessary red tape.
It is precisely these kind of politics that means the regional councils don't have to waste valuable (voluntary) resources dealing with whatever flavour of the month / hot topic is emailed to them on any given week. Find a proof that a majority of members wish something to happen yourself or allow the DCA/BCA/CNCC/whoever to investigate themselves in their way. Jenny has posted here and given you a path to try, did you approach the DCA directly with a question?

The only question "we" need an answer to (and I accept there is no clear answer) is whether cavers have the benefit of CRoW.

I have seen people suggest it should be taken up (in the case of the Dales) with the CNCC but NO ONE has answered the questions I asked because it is a total sham.

I assume you could not find the CNCC's email address to ask them yourself, if only they had a website with info on.....

Could a non-northern caving club join ?   Can an individual join ?  Is there a pre-requiste (like there is with the PDCMG) before you can join ?
•Full membership of the Council will only be granted to responsible and properly constituted clubs, which are owned and controlled by their own members, and are primarily based in the North of Britain.
•Applications for full membership must be proposed and seconded by full member clubs before being considered by the committee.

In any event, why is there even any resistence to the suggestion of CRoW being a mechanism for cavers to access caves in the Dales ?   Wouldn't it make life easier for the CNCC and their volunteers ?     Doesn't it (CRoW) provide automatic liability cover for landowners ?    Isn't it a Win/Win scenario ?
Perhaps you could attend a meeting and ask?
And ... why should some HAVE TO BE a BCA member to enter a cave in the Dales ?  That isn't just (prima facie) elitist but it is also "unknown" to a new adventurer beginning their life of underworld exploration ....
Most likely because the BCA (or more correctly their regional bodies) are probably the groups who originally negotiated most access agreements and are also seen by landowners as a representative body. I think that some of the fell owners in the Dales will only negotiate with the CNCC for access so I guess you'll have to join them to influence change.
The existence of a governing body may well be unknown to a beginner, but they must have discovered caving in some way - a forum, magazine, gear shop, friends, club, instructor etc... That will always be the case and is a great reason to campaign for simpler access open to all.


I have campaigned for access in a number of sports and I support the idea that CRoW should (& probably does) cover caving. I don't agree with the policy of some regions negotiating agreements purely for club cavers but feel very supported by my own body, the DCA.
I do find it a little bad taste to see the BCA and it's RB's flamed on a forum by people who probably haven't even tried to contact them. Does anyone really think things would change overnight? We cannot expect a system that has been established for a long time (rightly or wrongly) to be totally replaced overnight because a forum says so. That said, I am no fan of the way the CNCC deals with access.
The options are to go through the right channels and allow the BCA to deal with things (with pressure to maintain momentum) or to go and get a test case off your own back. I suggest this weekend on Leck would be a good start, don't forget your lawyer.

Right, so it's up to someone to put a proposal to BCA AGM.
Ian?

Offline potholer

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #651 on: April 01, 2013, 02:28:21 pm »
The most sensible point I have seen raised is that there is no apparent reason why "we" should not do it and it would be for the landowner to successfully obtain an iinjunction based on CRoW not being relevant. That would place the onus on the landowner, not the caver and avoid delays, money red tape and power crazed "bodies" trying to control everything where there is no requirement to do so.
So if you're looking for a suitable place, presumably you want an essentially natural-entrance cave (not a mine or mine-entered cave), on access land, with a landowner likely to notice you and take legal action even if they thought there was a significant chance of losing  (or illegal action you could legally respond to), and ideally without any existing access agreements to risk fouling up.

That should narrow down your search a bit.

I suppose, though, if we were to do that then the BCA would issue sanctions .....
If you're as dissatisfied with what they're doing as you appear to be, what do you think they could take away from you?

Offline Stuart Anderson

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #652 on: April 01, 2013, 02:56:14 pm »
So if you're looking for a suitable place, presumably you want an essentially natural-entrance cave (not a mine or mine-entered cave), on access land, with a landowner likely to notice you and take legal action even if they thought there was a significant chance of losing  (or illegal action you could legally respond to), and ideally without any existing access agreements to risk fouling up.

If you're on CRoW it wouldn't be a criminal offence. They can ask you to leave and you then cannot "access" that land again for 72 hours.
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Offline Stuart Anderson

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #653 on: April 01, 2013, 02:57:36 pm »

Right, so it's up to someone to put a proposal to BCA AGM.

I think watch this space is the saying...
I've roamed and rambled and I've followed my footsteps
To the sparkling sands of her diamond deserts
And all around me a voice was sounding
This land was made for you and me

Offline potholer

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #654 on: April 01, 2013, 03:17:11 pm »
If you're on CRoW it wouldn't be a criminal offence. They can ask you to leave and you then cannot "access" that land again for 72 hours.
The suggestion I was responding to was to try and provoke a landowner into taking some kind of civil action, in the hope that that would establish some kind of precedent?

Offline Stuart Anderson

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #655 on: April 01, 2013, 03:21:04 pm »
If you're on CRoW it wouldn't be a criminal offence. They can ask you to leave and you then cannot "access" that land again for 72 hours.
The suggestion I was responding to was to try and provoke a landowner into taking some kind of civil action, in the hope that that would establish some kind of precedent?

Sorry I see that now. Shouldn't skim read.

Would a civil action set a precedent? Not a lawyer.  :shrug: I know it's been mentioned that the Act and caving might need a court test but would it actually happen - as in set a precedent if it's a civil case? As you say a landowner willing to "help"?
I've roamed and rambled and I've followed my footsteps
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This land was made for you and me

Offline potholer

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #656 on: April 01, 2013, 03:33:20 pm »
Even if there was some kind of 'positive' decision regarding a 'right to cave', it might end up making limited difference in some places.
If the only vaguely convenient parking is off the public road, and in the control of the landowner...

Offline Ian Adams

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #657 on: April 01, 2013, 04:35:29 pm »
Pete K,

Thank for answerng the question(s) I asked and you have highlighted the exact problem I was alluding to.

I (as well as a great many others) do not meet the criteria laid down by the CNCC to join them. Yet, I am "required" to obtain a permit to enter systems from them and I can only do that if I am a BCA member.

I (as well as a great many others) have no power or position to effect any change to the current practice and I would therefore take great issue with the suggestion that they are a "democratic" organsition representing cavers best interests.

I fully respect the efforts they have made to obtain permission for cavers to enter land (going back a great many years) and I fully
 respect and accept the tremendous amount of (unpaid) work they have done. Before the advent of CRoW, this work was invaluable to cavers.

I do not, however, accept the argument that this thread is disturbing the status quo - I would say that happened when CRoW was enacted.

I believe that not addressing whether cavers do or do not have a right to cave under CRoW is a failing on the part of any "body" said to be representing the interests of cavers. Furthermore, I fail to see why any representative "body" would not investigate it properly as it would clearly lead to undertaking less (unpaid) work by the volunteers working on behalf of the cavers ...

Ian
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Offline Ian Adams

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #658 on: April 01, 2013, 04:42:22 pm »
I suppose, though, if we were to do that then the BCA would issue sanctions .....
If you're as dissatisfied with what they're doing as you appear to be, what do you think they could take away from you?

... BCA membership is a requirement for a great many "holes" - they would all be taken away.

In any event, I am not dis-satisified with the BCA per se, I simply do not understand why there appears to be a reluntance to support caving under CRoW.

Ian
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Offline Jenny P

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #659 on: April 01, 2013, 04:44:54 pm »
As I've already said:

Right, so it's up to someone to put a proposal to BCA AGM.

I don't feel I could do this myself because, in a sense, I'm part of the 'establishment'.  However, I'd support anyone who did make a sensible proposal because I do think this needs to be aired properly.

I'm sure that not everyone who is a member of BCA is totally satisfied with the status quo with regard to access on CRoW land - I'm just suggesting a way of getting this aired in a representative forum to try to get an answer and, maybe, a change.  Like it or not, for all its faults, at the moment BCA is the best representative forum we have so I'm suggesting a possible way forward.

If you yourself aren't a member of BCA either through a club or as an individual member, then persuade someone else who is dissatisfied to take it up on your behalf.

Or you can, of course, ignore my suggestion - that's your privilege - but I'm trying to help. 

Offline potholer

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #660 on: April 01, 2013, 04:50:19 pm »
In any event, I am not dis-satisified with the BCA per se, I simply do not understand why there appears to be a reluntance to support caving under CRoW.
I got the impression that you'd already decided that "power crazed "bodies" trying to control everything where there is no requirement to do so" was the reason for the current situation.

Apologies if I misinterpreted you.

Offline Ian Adams

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #661 on: April 01, 2013, 04:54:10 pm »
Apology accepted  ;)

I was suggesting that there are "power-crazed" bodies controlling access where there doesn't need to be any such "control". I was not suggesting that every "body" meets that criteria (they don't).

.... And, the BCA doesn't ...

Ian
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Offline kay

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #662 on: April 01, 2013, 05:08:55 pm »

I (as well as a great many others) do not meet the criteria laid down by the CNCC to join them. Yet, I am "required" to obtain a permit to enter systems from them and I can only do that if I am a BCA member.


No, you can only do it if you are a member of a BCA Club

 A DIM member of BCA can't get a permit.

Offline Ian Adams

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #663 on: April 01, 2013, 05:15:39 pm »
Kay,

Your distinction is well made and serves to illustrate the point I was making further.

Thank you

 :)

Ian
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Offline graham

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #664 on: April 01, 2013, 05:42:32 pm »
Ian

BCA was formed by the regional bodies & they were formed by their members, who are overwhelmingly caving clubs. If these are the bodies that negotiated access, why should they not privilege their members?
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Offline Stuart Anderson

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #665 on: April 01, 2013, 06:34:59 pm »
Ian

BCA was formed by the regional bodies & they were formed by their members, who are overwhelmingly caving clubs. If these are the bodies that negotiated access, why should they not privilege their members?

Seems to me that the need for the regional bodies (at least for the Dales) was down to the historical petty and small mindedness of many of the clubs. The history is there to be read. Not many of the Dales clubs bathed themselves in glory in the early years. BSA anyone?

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Offline Ian Adams

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #666 on: April 01, 2013, 06:41:47 pm »
Ian

BCA was formed by the regional bodies & they were formed by their members, who are overwhelmingly caving clubs. If these are the bodies that negotiated access, why should they not privilege their members?



No problem with that Graham  :)


Ian


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Offline potholer

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #667 on: April 01, 2013, 06:51:46 pm »
Seems to me that the need for the regional bodies (at least for the Dales) was down to the historical petty and small mindedness of many of the clubs. The history is there to be read. Not many of the Dales clubs bathed themselves in glory in the early years. BSA anyone?
What was particularly petty, small-minded or inglorious about people forming clubs to get away from being bossed around by E.S.?

Offline kay

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #668 on: April 01, 2013, 06:53:53 pm »
BCA was formed by the regional bodies & they were formed by their members, who are overwhelmingly caving clubs. If these are the bodies that negotiated access, why should they not privilege their members?

So DIMs are BCA members without caving privileges, then?

It's probably not a good idea for individual cavers to try to negotiate access for themselves and thus risk annoying landowners. So it's not necessarily such an obvious argument that "Clubs negotiated access so only club members should be allowed in the cave" any more than we regard it as a good argument that "Club X opened up Y cave, so access to Y cave should only be for members of Club X"

Offline Stuart Anderson

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #669 on: April 01, 2013, 07:05:02 pm »
Seems to me that the need for the regional bodies (at least for the Dales) was down to the historical petty and small mindedness of many of the clubs. The history is there to be read. Not many of the Dales clubs bathed themselves in glory in the early years. BSA anyone?
What was particularly petty, small-minded or inglorious about people forming clubs to get away from being bossed around by E.S.?

A lot of what came after. However that's another thread. Nowadays it's all love and harmony in the Dales and those days are past. My possibly too subtle point was that "the clubs" brought upon themselves (or had imposed), systems of access that we are now shackled to. A shackle the walkers and climbers managed to shed years ago.
I've roamed and rambled and I've followed my footsteps
To the sparkling sands of her diamond deserts
And all around me a voice was sounding
This land was made for you and me

Offline NewStuff

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #670 on: April 01, 2013, 07:41:17 pm »
The longer this goes on, the less I'm inclined to condemn those who remove gates. I had a theoretical understanding when I first entered exploration, and a decent understanding before this "debate". Now, I wholeheartedly understand why gates get cut off. I can't blame the motivation at all, but don't necessarily agree with the act itself.

I've never been exposed to "caving" politics before, but I have been warned about them, and stayed away. Something happens that I feel strongly about, and I try to do what I can to make a positive difference. Only to meet the old guard and their outdated, narrow minded attitudes. I get the distinct impression that a number of the people who currently have access (CRoW or not) will fight tooth and nail to make sure it stays that way, and fuck everybody else, they're not important, and they can join our club if they want in that bad.

I'm bowing out. I just want to go down a hole, not argue. Next time I meet a gate that has no real need to be there, I'll give it a lot more consideration than I used to. Certain elements have brought this upon themselves, as I am far from the only person that feels this.
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Offline droid

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #671 on: April 01, 2013, 07:53:53 pm »
I'm bowing out. I just want to go down a hole, not argue.

Rubbish.

You've been adopting a belligerently rabble-rousing stance since you joined this forum. Bought in as cavalry for your club-mate, you've failed to sway those that disagreed with IA, now you're going.

Cue longwinded response from IA ;D
No longer 'Exceptionally antagonistic' 'Deliberately inflammatory'

Offline Jon

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #672 on: April 01, 2013, 08:04:56 pm »
It'll soon be 1932 all over again. Who wants to be Benny Rothman?

Offline damian

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #673 on: April 01, 2013, 08:07:34 pm »
Some of those who are posting recently may have missed the following in my earlier post (I've just added the bold):
Quote
4) On the whole cavers have good relations with landowners and enjoy reasonable access as a result. However, if the CRoW Act were shown to cover caving, then it is felt that cavers would find it very difficult to secure permission for digs. If it were to be the case that a newly-discovered cave on their land would instantly bring a stream of cavers every weekend walking to a part of their land that generally sees few visitors, and this would continue ad infinitum, then many landowners would have to think very hard before agreeing to the dig. Given the importance of digs to caving, and the generally good access we currently enjoy to caves, BCA doesn’t feel it is actually in cavers’ best interests to risk everything by seeking to have caving included in CRoW.
Relating to Jenny's suggestion that somebody should make a proposal to the BCA AGM, officially the deadline for any matters to be raised at the AGM passed on 16th March. I would suggest, though, that the AGM is unlikely to refuse to discuss sensible and appropriate things raised by members.

Offline potholer

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #674 on: April 01, 2013, 08:27:03 pm »
I'm bowing out. I just want to go down a hole, not argue. Next time I meet a gate that has no real need to be there, I'll give it a lot more consideration than I used to. Certain elements have brought this upon themselves, as I am far from the only person that feels this.
So everyone has a right to judge for themselves what they think 'needs' to be there, and to act accordingly while simultaneously putting the responsibility onto other people?

 

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