Just for a point of clarification - BCA came into being in 2003.CRoW was 2000NCA was the body in question during he CRoW consultations.
Once more we are drifting (prior to the last couple of posts) from the point in question: If cavers are allowed to cross CRoW designated land to a cave entrance, are they also legally allowed to enter the cave on a caving trip. Please stick to the subject.
Quote from: Badlad on April 04, 2013, 04:50:23 pmQuote from: graham on April 04, 2013, 04:38:41 pmQuote from: Badlad on April 04, 2013, 04:25:39 pmThink on this.Most of the caves under Leck and Casterton Fells are part of the Three Counties System. A permit is required for the entrances on these fells. Yet easy and unpermitted access can be gained if you access this same system via Link, Pip, Boundary, Mistral, Bull Pot, Ireby, Large or Rift. You can park at Bull Pot Farm, get kitted up in full caving gear, walk over the CRoW open access land, walk past Lancaster Hole (but you can't go down it), continue to the entrance of Link Pot, go caving, end up underneath the entrance shaft of Lancaster Hole (but you can't go up it) and exit via Boundary Pot and walk back to the car over Casterton Fell. This doesn't make sense.Although what you describe is physically possible, what makes you believe it is legally so? What is it about accessing the cave via Link Pot that gives you the right to visit the bottom of the Lancaster Hole entrance shaft?Well there lies another interesting debate. The complexities of which make a mockery of the system and one which is, of course, impossible to control or police.So, you agree that you do not know that what you describe is legal. Fair enough. As to whether it can be controlled or policed, of course it can be. Whether the required methods would be considered acceptable in all quarters is another matter.
Quote from: graham on April 04, 2013, 04:38:41 pmQuote from: Badlad on April 04, 2013, 04:25:39 pmThink on this.Most of the caves under Leck and Casterton Fells are part of the Three Counties System. A permit is required for the entrances on these fells. Yet easy and unpermitted access can be gained if you access this same system via Link, Pip, Boundary, Mistral, Bull Pot, Ireby, Large or Rift. You can park at Bull Pot Farm, get kitted up in full caving gear, walk over the CRoW open access land, walk past Lancaster Hole (but you can't go down it), continue to the entrance of Link Pot, go caving, end up underneath the entrance shaft of Lancaster Hole (but you can't go up it) and exit via Boundary Pot and walk back to the car over Casterton Fell. This doesn't make sense.Although what you describe is physically possible, what makes you believe it is legally so? What is it about accessing the cave via Link Pot that gives you the right to visit the bottom of the Lancaster Hole entrance shaft?Well there lies another interesting debate. The complexities of which make a mockery of the system and one which is, of course, impossible to control or police.
Quote from: Badlad on April 04, 2013, 04:25:39 pmThink on this.Most of the caves under Leck and Casterton Fells are part of the Three Counties System. A permit is required for the entrances on these fells. Yet easy and unpermitted access can be gained if you access this same system via Link, Pip, Boundary, Mistral, Bull Pot, Ireby, Large or Rift. You can park at Bull Pot Farm, get kitted up in full caving gear, walk over the CRoW open access land, walk past Lancaster Hole (but you can't go down it), continue to the entrance of Link Pot, go caving, end up underneath the entrance shaft of Lancaster Hole (but you can't go up it) and exit via Boundary Pot and walk back to the car over Casterton Fell. This doesn't make sense.Although what you describe is physically possible, what makes you believe it is legally so? What is it about accessing the cave via Link Pot that gives you the right to visit the bottom of the Lancaster Hole entrance shaft?
Think on this.Most of the caves under Leck and Casterton Fells are part of the Three Counties System. A permit is required for the entrances on these fells. Yet easy and unpermitted access can be gained if you access this same system via Link, Pip, Boundary, Mistral, Bull Pot, Ireby, Large or Rift. You can park at Bull Pot Farm, get kitted up in full caving gear, walk over the CRoW open access land, walk past Lancaster Hole (but you can't go down it), continue to the entrance of Link Pot, go caving, end up underneath the entrance shaft of Lancaster Hole (but you can't go up it) and exit via Boundary Pot and walk back to the car over Casterton Fell. This doesn't make sense.
Jenny, despite linking to that document, I'm cautious about it and may not have described it originally correctly. N.E. have replied to me to say that:"Therefore it is fair to say that the consultant [who wrote it] didn’t express solely their opinion or that of DEFRA or Natural England."
.... it would be sensible to try to do this in a non-confrontational way since we do not want to antagonise landowners unnecessarily and risk losing the limited access we have in some areas.
Quote from: blackholesun on April 04, 2013, 05:33:04 pmJenny, despite linking to that document, I'm cautious about it and may not have described it originally correctly. N.E. have replied to me to say that:"Therefore it is fair to say that the consultant [who wrote it] didn’t express solely their opinion or that of DEFRA or Natural England."Agreed, but it is at least a small chink of light and worth following up if it's part of a document that NE commissioned.
Wow Jenny, thats one hell of a missive!Caving is referred to significantly in the Earth Heritage Sites section, page 175 on, there is some suggestion that NE could apply some form of access control to caves on conservation grounds.
Or, put another way, you'd like to find out whether the law can be interpreted such that it allows you over-rule or ignore any wishes of the landowner.
the only people who seem to benefit are those who " manage " caving access - which begs a question ... or 3
I am directly involved in the management of a cave or two. What, pray tell, are the benefits that I get from this? Please take into account the fact that my current state of health means that I don't actually get underground very often these days.
Am I the only one that sees the distinct ecological difference between people wandering freely over reasonably robust fellsides and remembering that spreading them all out over the fell minimises the energy impact previously limited to narrow footpaths, which them needed constant repair and comparing this with most of our caves where there are not many different routes through one passage and where energy inputs from visitors are disproportionately high compared with the normal background levels.Caves is different to fells.
BadladAm I the only one that sees the distinct ecological difference between people wandering freely over reasonably robust fellsides and remembering that spreading them all out over the fell minimises the energy impact previously limited to narrow footpaths, which them needed constant repair and comparing this with most of our caves where there are not many different routes through one passage and where energy inputs from visitors are disproportionately high compared with the normal background levels.Caves is different to fells.
Caving has and always will be a minority sport. Even with more open access the increase in traffic will be, in most places, negligible.