Author Topic: Local Cave Leader Training For Scout Leaders  (Read 17120 times)

Offline adamgeens

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Re: Local Cave Leader Training For Scout Leaders
« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2016, 09:22:32 pm »


Why are Staffs a member of ASCT? i believe you have at least 3 Scout Cave Leaders but keep yourselves very quiet?

Idris

Idris

Im one of those leaders, what does this mean, Idris?

Offline Gollum

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Re: Local Cave Leader Training For Scout Leaders
« Reply #26 on: January 12, 2016, 12:17:09 pm »
if climbing equipment is used then there must be a ALS license, personally I never use climbing equipment underground, what I use is caving equipment. Actually when you analyse what cavers use ( exploratory aven climbing excluded) there is little in common. Ropes are static not dynamic, harnesses are different,  helmets might be to climbing standard but have been modified to take lamps. The only common item is karabiners, you could rigg using mailons! That is going to be my defence in court if the shit hits the fan, assuming I can ever persuade the Guide leaders to take their girls and onr come with me!

Idris

I would think the term using climbing equipment refers to using ropes and technical equipment i.e pitches.
I love how guides and scouts have their own rules and don't conform to BCA CIC or LCMLA schemes
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Offline badger

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Re: Local Cave Leader Training For Scout Leaders
« Reply #27 on: January 12, 2016, 05:58:35 pm »
think if you read idris statement previously it states that guides need someone who has a lcmla.
the scout requirements to be a cave leader essentially follow the lcmla course, so in fact we do fall some what into the bca cic lcmla schemes all not actually have to require you have it, we are also assessed before being given a permit to take YP people underground

Offline idriswilliams

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Re: Local Cave Leader Training For Scout Leaders
« Reply #28 on: January 12, 2016, 07:17:19 pm »
Hi Adam,

There was a mistake in this I should have asked why Staffs aren't a member of ASCT?

To become one you would need to join BCA as a member club. Very cheap if you don't take BCA insurance (Scout Insurance is much better).

You would then get representation at BCA and could have come to our AGM & workshop this weekend coming. Most Scout Teams/Clubs find it a useful way of exchanging ideas, helping each other out and getting away from the lonely feeling of being just a few of you all on your own

Idris

Why are Staffs a member of ASCT? i believe you have at least 3 Scout Cave Leaders but keep yourselves very quiet?

Idris

Idris

Im one of those leaders, what does this mean, Idris?

Offline phizz4

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Re: Local Cave Leader Training For Scout Leaders
« Reply #29 on: January 12, 2016, 07:39:14 pm »
Adam/Idris

As County Caving Advisor for Staffordshire Scouts I am quite in favour of this idea, although I don't feel lonely out here. I will get on to it in the next few days, when I have my done my first aid renewal course this coming weekend.

Offline paull

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Re: Local Cave Leader Training For Scout Leaders
« Reply #30 on: January 12, 2016, 09:22:51 pm »
if climbing equipment is used then there must be a ALS license, personally I never use climbing equipment underground, what I use is caving equipment. Actually when you analyse what cavers use ( exploratory aven climbing excluded) there is little in common. Ropes are static not dynamic, harnesses are different,  helmets might be to climbing standard but have been modified to take lamps. The only common item is karabiners, you could rigg using mailons! That is going to be my defence in court if the shit hits the fan, assuming I can ever persuade the Guide leaders to take their girls and onr come with me!

Idris



I would think the term using climbing equipment refers to using ropes and technical equipment i.e pitches.
I love how guides and scouts have their own rules and don't conform to BCA CIC or LCMLA schemes

allow me to explain the training and assessment process to you next time i see you Gollum
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Offline adamgeens

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Re: Local Cave Leader Training For Scout Leaders
« Reply #31 on: January 12, 2016, 10:37:01 pm »
thanks Idris that makes more sense. I've agreed with PaulW to be down Mendip this weekend so let me know if me/Staffs are not allowed in the AGM and I'll have an extra hour in bed  ;D Otherwise I look forward to meeting everybody, you can explain the details to me over a pint in the Hunters on Saturday (assuming the beer is better than it was last weekend!)
Cheers,
Adam

Offline Gollum

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Re: Local Cave Leader Training For Scout Leaders
« Reply #32 on: January 13, 2016, 05:00:08 pm »


allow me to explain the training and assessment process to you next time i see you Gollum
[/quote]

As i understand it a cave leader level one can assess other covers which is like a driver being allowed to pass other drivers. If that is correct then I find it hard to understand.

My main concern is scouts can use a mine that the LCMLA panel have listed as too dangerous to use with groups and has never been inspected by PICA.
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Offline PaulW

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Re: Local Cave Leader Training For Scout Leaders
« Reply #33 on: January 13, 2016, 05:18:01 pm »


As i understand it a cave leader level one can assess other covers which is like a driver being allowed to pass other drivers. If that is correct then I find it hard to understand.

My main concern is scouts can use a mine that the LCMLA panel have listed as too dangerous to use with groups and has never been inspected by PICA.

To take scouts in a mine, the mine has to have a valid inspection report, the same as taking any youth group in a mine.
The majority (If not all) of scout caving assessors are LMCLA level 2 award holders, and are all volunteers

You are more than welcome to volunteer to come to one of our weekends ( this weekend if you so wish) and offer some training

Online RichardB1983

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Re: Local Cave Leader Training For Scout Leaders
« Reply #34 on: January 13, 2016, 05:24:53 pm »
My main concern is scouts can use a mine that the LCMLA panel have listed as too dangerous to use with groups and has never been inspected by PICA.
To take scouts in a mine, the mine has to have a valid inspection report,

There's a list of mines with inspection reports on the Scout Association website: https://members.scouts.org.uk/mineinspectionreports.

Might not be exhaustive though.

Offline badger

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Re: Local Cave Leader Training For Scout Leaders
« Reply #35 on: January 13, 2016, 05:37:04 pm »
and not only was I assessed for a cave permit, within our county we also have to assessed to have a mines permit.
and as PW has stated the mine (subterrean quarry) we use has been inspected and has an approved route, shame as it means some of the passages which we would like to use are off limits,
there is also a mine very close which would be ideal YP however as of yet it has not passed an inspection.
our assessors are level 2 and have also  done some of the CIC training,

Offline Paul Greenfield

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Re: Local Cave Leader Training For Scout Leaders
« Reply #36 on: January 14, 2016, 12:10:16 pm »
It is a shame that Scouting keeps doing this - it destroys all ceribility for Scouting Activity Authorisations in the world outside of Scouting.
For hill-walking, Scouts use the Mountain Leader as the assessor qualification, everyone else uses the Mountain Instructor Award.
For climbing, Scouts use the Single Pitch Award as the assessor qualification, everyone else uses the Mountain Instructor Award.
For caving, Scouts use the LCLMA (levels 1 & 2) as the assessor qualification, everyone else uses the Cave Instructor Certificate.
Any system where an assessor can assess others to his / her own technical standard (eg an M.L. holder authorising others to M.L. standard) will lack credibility !
Currently Scouting will not produce a register of all their Count Activity Assessors, so no-one knows who they are, or what qualifications they hold; it appears to be up to each Scout County to arrange their own assessment process.
The real shame is that there are some good, competant, enthusiastic Scout leaders out there taking youngsters for some very worthwhile activities to our hills, crags and caves; but their credibility is totaly undermined by faulty assessment system.
Whenever I discuss this, I am told "all Scout Assessors are volunteers," and "things are better now than they used to be."
But surely:- volunteers should be volunteering to do things to the correct standard, and although things are better than they used to be, they can still get better !
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Online RichardB1983

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Re: Local Cave Leader Training For Scout Leaders
« Reply #37 on: January 14, 2016, 02:10:48 pm »
The real shame is that there are some good, competant, enthusiastic Scout leaders out there taking youngsters for some very worthwhile activities to our hills, crags and caves; but their credibility is totaly undermined by faulty assessment system.

But if you gold-plate the qualifications needed to assess - then it'll be harder to find enough assessors to sign-off your permits - and so the young people won't get out into the hills, crags & caves at all. The activity won't happen. Similarly you could insist on the scout leaders getting full NGB qualifications to run activities instead of ones assessed internally and this would no doubt have the same effect.

FWIW, if you intend to assess for multi-pitch climbing leadership permits - you do need the Mountain Instructor Award - similarly you need to be CIC if you are assessing permits for caving with SRT for the group. If you are assessing for scout leaders wishing to supervise occasional trips to a climbing wall - or a non-vertical cave/mine - is it really necessary for the assessor to hold the higher award?

Offline Gollum

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Re: Local Cave Leader Training For Scout Leaders
« Reply #38 on: January 14, 2016, 02:20:44 pm »
It is a shame that Scouting keeps doing this - it destroys all ceribility for Scouting Activity Authorisations in the world outside of Scouting.
For hill-walking, Scouts use the Mountain Leader as the assessor qualification, everyone else uses the Mountain Instructor Award.
For climbing, Scouts use the Single Pitch Award as the assessor qualification, everyone else uses the Mountain Instructor Award.
For caving, Scouts use the LCLMA (levels 1 & 2) as the assessor qualification, everyone else uses the Cave Instructor Certificate.
Any system where an assessor can assess others to his / her own technical standard (eg an M.L. holder authorising others to M.L. standard) will lack credibility !
Currently Scouting will not produce a register of all their Count Activity Assessors, so no-one knows who they are, or what qualifications they hold; it appears to be up to each Scout County to arrange their own assessment process.
The real shame is that there are some good, competant, enthusiastic Scout leaders out there taking youngsters for some very worthwhile activities to our hills, crags and caves; but their credibility is totaly undermined by faulty assessment system.
Whenever I discuss this, I am told "all Scout Assessors are volunteers," and "things are better now than they used to be."
But surely:- volunteers should be volunteering to do things to the correct standard, and although things are better than they used to be, they can still get better !
Come on Scouts, join the 21st century.

I agree totally
As i said in an earlier post you wouldn't allow a driver to assess if a person is safe to drive.
I am level 2 LCMLA but I can't and shouldn't be allowed to say who can take groups safely underground. Even a CIC has to train and jump through hoops before they are allowed to train and assess LCMLA scheme.
Sadly Scouts will continue to operate like this until something goes wrong and the Sh*t hits the fan
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Offline phizz4

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Re: Local Cave Leader Training For Scout Leaders
« Reply #39 on: January 14, 2016, 04:33:10 pm »
I have to take issue with some of these comments, about ML/SPA/LCML1/2 being under-qualified to assess other people's abilities to lead scout groups.
In my county I have to have a county permit to drive a minibus. I have to be assessed on my driving ability every 5 years. This assessment is done by another driver who is on the list of the counties approved assessors, who may be a licenced driving instructor or a retired policeman. He is no more 'qualified' than me.
When I did my ML and SPA assessments, the course leader was an MIA, but all of the other assessors with us had the ML and/or SPA qualification.
In our county, as a team, we moderate each others assessments, both within county and between counties. Last year we had a refresher/moderation day with an MIC, who looked at the way that we run our assessment courses and the standard that we work to. He was very impressed with both our methods and our standards.
With Scout association assessments, the permit scheme allows permits to be as wide or as restrictive as we wish. Hence, I feel competent to assess a scout leader to lead groups down, for example Devonshire, having seen them do so successfully, and their permit would only allow them to do that cave, if that is appropriate to their experience.
If we all had to have MIA/MIC/CIC qualifications the range of activities that scouts can enjoy would virtually cease to exist. These are professional qualifications that most scout leaders would not have the time or money to acquire.


Offline bograt

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Re: Local Cave Leader Training For Scout Leaders
« Reply #40 on: January 14, 2016, 06:59:41 pm »
Could I ask (or dare I) if the Scout Movement have their own qualification for hill walking or climbing (an equivalent for the MLC?), or is this policy caving specific?

I have extensive historic experience of Scouts/Guides caving leadership in Derbyshire---!
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Offline badger

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Re: Local Cave Leader Training For Scout Leaders
« Reply #41 on: January 14, 2016, 07:15:08 pm »
Bograt, I am by no means up to speed on this, however as I am aware there is different levels summer/winter, and heights above sea level
what you need to be an assessor I don't know
what you have to demonstrate to show you are compedent I also don't know, but suspect it would be something similar to the caving one

Offline Smiley Alan

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Re: Local Cave Leader Training For Scout Leaders
« Reply #42 on: January 14, 2016, 07:22:54 pm »
It is a shame that Scouting keeps doing this - it destroys all ceribility for Scouting Activity Authorisations in the world outside of Scouting.

agree . seems weerd that theres a  natonal asessment sceme by bca wich could  be used by scouts but isnt .

if the scout asessments run  inhouse by them are different how are  they any good?

Offline phizz4

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Re: Local Cave Leader Training For Scout Leaders
« Reply #43 on: January 14, 2016, 07:24:14 pm »
The Scout Association designates terrain in the UK as T0, T1 and T2. To cut a long reply a little shorter, T1 is below 500 metres and requires no specific permit. T1 is 500 m to 800 m (with other criteria needing to be applied), and a person wishing to lead groups in this terrain would be assessed to the (old) Walking Group Leader standard. T2 is over 800 metres and assessment is to ML standard. In our county an assessment would be carried out over a long weekend by at least 3 different ML holders, all of whom have attended an assessor's weekend course run by Plas y Benin.

Offline badger

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Re: Local Cave Leader Training For Scout Leaders
« Reply #44 on: January 14, 2016, 07:36:22 pm »
so a CIC caver can assess me better than a lcmla 2 in taking YP into goatchurch, what can the assess any better? I have witnessed CIC cavers taking 16 plus into goatchurch, is this what the CIC teach you?
TSA has a system in place that you have to able to demonstrate, so turning up and the assor ask whats the weather forecast, simple, but how many cavers go caving without getting one, and please don't tell me everyone.
TSA, uni clubs, professional cavers take the next are the places where YP are introduced to caving, hopefully finding the next cavers to push the sport forward, they all do a good job, do we need these, well judging by the mean age hidden earth I would say more than ever.
so we can go tit for tat my assessment is better than yours, my assessment is better cause its in the dales blah blah, so you might be CIC caver but does that make you more capable than me, well from what I have seen from some, well leave that upto you, I have also seen some scout leaders who I think could do better, but least they doing something.
as for listing everyone, unfortunately scouting has to abide by the Data protection act, not I hasten to say a scout law but one we all have to abide by, i.e I cannot give you anyone of my running clubs names

Offline bograt

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Re: Local Cave Leader Training For Scout Leaders
« Reply #45 on: January 14, 2016, 08:08:35 pm »
Steady on Badger, that last post was a bit rambling and disjointed, but I think I got the gist; I think that CIC holders have to have experience in all regions, someone will correct me if I'm wrong. (That was the old NCA system at least-)

Other points raised by you will be addressed later----.
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Online RichardB1983

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Re: Local Cave Leader Training For Scout Leaders
« Reply #46 on: January 14, 2016, 08:37:26 pm »
Bograt, I am by no means up to speed on this, however as I am aware there is different levels summer/winter, and heights above sea level
what you need to be an assessor I don't know
what you have to demonstrate to show you are compedent I also don't know, but suspect it would be something similar to the caving one

To assess for hillwalking (in terrain 1 or 2) as a "county assessor" - i.e. internal appointed assessors by the scout county - you need to have the relevant mountain leader award (summer or winter). For external assessors - they need the Mountain Instructor Award.

There's a checklist for the sort of thing they're meant to be assessing here. When I did mine we had a 2-day assessment in the Glyders - I was quizzed on emergency procedures - scout rules - weather conditions and forecast etc. We had to plan a route suitable for a group and then carry out the plan - and we were assessed on our party management (people in the party were given various instructions to be e.g. nervous scout / overconfident / trying to wander off etc.). The ones being tested for terrain 2 were also tested on ropework - confidence roping - Thompson knot (although that's no longer on the ML syllabus I think - it was when I did my assessment) - classic abseil etc. On the other day we were tested on micro-navigation - as well as in low visibility - which we ended up doing at night because the cloudbase was too high.

Getting the full ML qualification will be prohibitively expensive for many volunteer scout leaders who maybe only want to run a few hillwalking sessions a year - but the county ran both training and assessment inexpensively, with the nagivation element designed to be tested to the same standard.

Offline badger

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Re: Local Cave Leader Training For Scout Leaders
« Reply #47 on: January 14, 2016, 08:59:43 pm »
sorry bograt, I don't know why I let these people get to me, I just get fed up with people scout bashing when clearly they only half the facts :read:
the post that only a CIC could assess my ability when a CIC caver takes 16 plus into a cave as being a safe practise. :shrug:
anyway I know my ability, and I know the ability of the people who assess me and am quite happy. :thumbsup:

Offline adamgeens

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Re: Local Cave Leader Training For Scout Leaders
« Reply #48 on: January 14, 2016, 09:11:52 pm »
Oh heck where do I start? Richard I don't think you're helping your case. You are confirming that assessors in scouting hold the same quals as an instructor would be required to have to run the activity i.e. Lead climbing and MIA, SRT with gorups and CIC. Still not a level up.

Suggesting in defence of scouting that a leader might only want to run one or two mountain days / cave days etc. a year is not confidence inspiring, sorry, and is definitely not a reason for lowering standards. If your child dies on an organised caving activity are you going to behave differently if it is a scout trip or an AALA licensed trip? Probably not. And the crux is that the courts will commission an expert witness that will without doubt be NGB to top level potentially stating that the scouting permit scheme is insufficently robust.

There is funding in scouting for leaders to undertake quals. In my area, PYB gives a 50-75% discount, and my county have  a specific budget that would most likely pay the rest. My stance is either take it seriously or don't do it. There are plenty of professionals that can take scouts on adventurous activities.

Are we saying that the BCA is over the top in requiring CICs (but only with additional training and assessment) to deliver LCMLA L1 training and assessment? If so then that is the discussion to be had, not why scouts only require an LCMLA L1 to do the same thing.

At the risk of releasing an other load of worms, my issue has always been the lack of monitoring of scout permit holders. A permit lasts for 5 years and it is feasible that no one of suitable 'experience' will observe a single session. At the end of that five years, the permit is often just re-issued. Employers would observe regularly and even self-employed should be observed via AALA.

For clarification in case you're wondering I'm holder of several scout permits, an LCMLA L2 (with AALA through my OEC), Outdoor Education Adviser, and until recently an Assistant District Commissioner for Activities - a role I withdrew from due to the above concerns.

My belief is that there is no reason to not require the relevant NGBs to deliver scouting activities but the association don't seem to agree.

Offline Pete K

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Re: Local Cave Leader Training For Scout Leaders
« Reply #49 on: January 14, 2016, 10:26:32 pm »
Not all qualifications are equal and the real knowledge about whether they are suitable or not requires understanding the nature of the qualification.
SPA, ML & LCMLA awards are all excellent leadership qualifications. A candidate will be assessed in their remit terrain and need to prove that they can competently safeguard people and teach basic skills to aid progression. For these awards you are only expected to be able to demonstrate one or maybe two different methods of achieving a particular rescue or set up etc... In the case of the LCMLA awards you are limited to use only sites that you are assessed in and even at Level 2 (vertical skills) you need only demonstrate safe practice and an appropriate method for rescue. The LCMLA (& SPA and ML) awards are great LEADERSHIP awards but they are no certification of an individuals' ability to coach, train up to that level or give a deep background knowledge of all hazards and conservation issues. No doubt there are a some LCMLA holders, like Gollum, with huge additional knowledge beyond their certificate but the assessed knowledge difference between the LCMLA and CIC (or SPA and MIA) awards is huge.
A CIC or MIA is an instructor qualification. Both awards require an in depth knowledge of every aspect of the sport and have a large coaching component. The governing bodies for the sports recognise that these higher level awards are the only ones appropriate for teaching those who will lead others in hazardous environments.

I think the scouting movement is an excellent thing and yes, higher qualifications would push some volunteers out, but the CICs (and MIAs) are out there. I bet if the BCA was asked publicly about how they felt about an LCMLA L1 holder assessing someone to do the same job they would not entertain the idea. Your LCMLA qualified volunteers may have the personal ability to teach and assess other leaders but their LCMLA qualification does not even come close to certifying them for that.