Local Cave Leader Training For Scout Leaders

jiant said:
Bother, I'm already booked up for that weekend.  Will keep an eye out for the next...

Hi,

Are you an existing Scout Cave Leader? I assume if you are Croydon you cave in S.Wales. Do you get emails from ASCT? If you send me your "email" address I will put you in touch. There are very few Scout Cavers in S.Wales and it might be that you could help them. idriswilliams@aol.com will find me.

Idris Williams

 

jiant

New member
idriswilliams said:
Hi,

Are you an existing Scout Cave Leader? I assume if you are Croydon you cave in S.Wales. Do you get emails from ASCT? If you send me your "email" address I will put you in touch. There are very few Scout Cavers in S.Wales and it might be that you could help them. idriswilliams@aol.com will find me.

Idris Williams

Hi Idris.

No, I'm not an existing Scout Cave Leader but have been meaning to get it sorted out as there are even fewer Scout cavers in Oxfordshire where I live.  I do cave mostly in S. Wales.  Rhys has helped out our troop when we've been caving there before.  I've been vaguely thinking of looking into getting a caving team together in our county.  I *think* I'm already on the ASCT email list from a visit to the Scout stand at a previous Hidden Earth.

James.
 
Hi,

If you would like to go down the route of becoming a Scout Cave Leader would you like to join With Shropshire Scout Caving Team on a Scout Cavers Badge Course This will be 20th-22nd Nov we will stay at Ynyscedwyn Scout Hut. Saturday we will do Porth-yr-Ogof & Bridge cave. Tour the rescue depot in the evening and Sunday OFD2 topentrance to Trident. We will be in 3 groups of one cave leadr + 4 Scouts & a Scout Leader. They will have been underground once with us locally. We always welcome taking others to see what we do. If you wish this could even be an assessment.

Idris

jiant said:
idriswilliams said:
Hi,

Are you an existing Scout Cave Leader? I assume if you are Croydon you cave in S.Wales. Do you get emails from ASCT? If you send me your "email" address I will put you in touch. There are very few Scout Cavers in S.Wales and it might be that you could help them. idriswilliams@aol.com will find me.

Idris Williams

Hi Idris.

No, I'm not an existing Scout Cave Leader but have been meaning to get it sorted out as there are even fewer Scout cavers in Oxfordshire where I live.  I do cave mostly in S. Wales.  Rhys has helped out our troop when we've been caving there before.  I've been vaguely thinking of looking into getting a caving team together in our county.  I *think* I'm already on the ASCT email list from a visit to the Scout stand at a previous Hidden Earth.

James.
 

jiant

New member
Hi Idris,

That sounds great too but I think I have family commitments that weekend, I will check.  I would be interested in coming the next time though.

James.

idriswilliams said:
Hi,

If you would like to go down the route of becoming a Scout Cave Leader would you like to join With Shropshire Scout Caving Team on a Scout Cavers Badge Course This will be 20th-22nd Nov we will stay at Ynyscedwyn Scout Hut. Saturday we will do Porth-yr-Ogof & Bridge cave. Tour the rescue depot in the evening and Sunday OFD2 topentrance to Trident. We will be in 3 groups of one cave leadr + 4 Scouts & a Scout Leader. They will have been underground once with us locally. We always welcome taking others to see what we do. If you wish this could even be an assessment.

Idris
 

Gollum

New member
idriswilliams said:
if climbing equipment is used then there must be a ALS license, personally I never use climbing equipment underground, what I use is caving equipment. Actually when you analyse what cavers use ( exploratory aven climbing excluded) there is little in common. Ropes are static not dynamic, harnesses are different,  helmets might be to climbing standard but have been modified to take lamps. The only common item is karabiners, you could rigg using mailons! That is going to be my defence in court if the shit hits the fan, assuming I can ever persuade the Guide leaders to take their girls and onr come with me!

Idris

I would think the term using climbing equipment refers to using ropes and technical equipment i.e pitches.
I love how guides and scouts have their own rules and don't conform to BCA CIC or LCMLA schemes
 

badger

Member
think if you read idris statement previously it states that guides need someone who has a lcmla.
the scout requirements to be a cave leader essentially follow the lcmla course, so in fact we do fall some what into the bca cic lcmla schemes all not actually have to require you have it, we are also assessed before being given a permit to take YP people underground
 
adamgeens said:
idriswilliams said:
phizz4 said:
Hi Adam,

There was a mistake in this I should have asked why Staffs aren't a member of ASCT?

To become one you would need to join BCA as a member club. Very cheap if you don't take BCA insurance (Scout Insurance is much better).

You would then get representation at BCA and could have come to our AGM & workshop this weekend coming. Most Scout Teams/Clubs find it a useful way of exchanging ideas, helping each other out and getting away from the lonely feeling of being just a few of you all on your own

Idris

Why are Staffs a member of ASCT? i believe you have at least 3 Scout Cave Leaders but keep yourselves very quiet?

Idris

Idris

Im one of those leaders, what does this mean, Idris?
 

phizz4

Member
Adam/Idris

As County Caving Advisor for Staffordshire Scouts I am quite in favour of this idea, although I don't feel lonely out here. I will get on to it in the next few days, when I have my done my first aid renewal course this coming weekend.
 

paull

New member
Gollum said:
idriswilliams said:
if climbing equipment is used then there must be a ALS license, personally I never use climbing equipment underground, what I use is caving equipment. Actually when you analyse what cavers use ( exploratory aven climbing excluded) there is little in common. Ropes are static not dynamic, harnesses are different,  helmets might be to climbing standard but have been modified to take lamps. The only common item is karabiners, you could rigg using mailons! That is going to be my defence in court if the shit hits the fan, assuming I can ever persuade the Guide leaders to take their girls and onr come with me!

Idris



I would think the term using climbing equipment refers to using ropes and technical equipment i.e pitches.
I love how guides and scouts have their own rules and don't conform to BCA CIC or LCMLA schemes

allow me to explain the training and assessment process to you next time i see you Gollum
 

adamgeens

Member
thanks Idris that makes more sense. I've agreed with PaulW to be down Mendip this weekend so let me know if me/Staffs are not allowed in the AGM and I'll have an extra hour in bed  ;) Otherwise I look forward to meeting everybody, you can explain the details to me over a pint in the Hunters on Saturday (assuming the beer is better than it was last weekend!)
Cheers,
Adam
 

Gollum

New member
allow me to explain the training and assessment process to you next time i see you Gollum
[/quote]

As i understand it a cave leader level one can assess other covers which is like a driver being allowed to pass other drivers. If that is correct then I find it hard to understand.

My main concern is scouts can use a mine that the LCMLA panel have listed as too dangerous to use with groups and has never been inspected by PICA.
 

PaulW

Member
Gollum said:
As i understand it a cave leader level one can assess other covers which is like a driver being allowed to pass other drivers. If that is correct then I find it hard to understand.

My main concern is scouts can use a mine that the LCMLA panel have listed as too dangerous to use with groups and has never been inspected by PICA.

To take scouts in a mine, the mine has to have a valid inspection report, the same as taking any youth group in a mine.
The majority (If not all) of scout caving assessors are LMCLA level 2 award holders, and are all volunteers

You are more than welcome to volunteer to come to one of our weekends ( this weekend if you so wish) and offer some training
 

badger

Member
and not only was I assessed for a cave permit, within our county we also have to assessed to have a mines permit.
and as PW has stated the mine (subterrean quarry) we use has been inspected and has an approved route, shame as it means some of the passages which we would like to use are off limits,
there is also a mine very close which would be ideal YP however as of yet it has not passed an inspection.
our assessors are level 2 and have also  done some of the CIC training,
 

Paul Greenfield

New member
It is a shame that Scouting keeps doing this - it destroys all ceribility for Scouting Activity Authorisations in the world outside of Scouting.
For hill-walking, Scouts use the Mountain Leader as the assessor qualification, everyone else uses the Mountain Instructor Award.
For climbing, Scouts use the Single Pitch Award as the assessor qualification, everyone else uses the Mountain Instructor Award.
For caving, Scouts use the LCLMA (levels 1 & 2) as the assessor qualification, everyone else uses the Cave Instructor Certificate.
Any system where an assessor can assess others to his / her own technical standard (eg an M.L. holder authorising others to M.L. standard) will lack credibility !
Currently Scouting will not produce a register of all their Count Activity Assessors, so no-one knows who they are, or what qualifications they hold; it appears to be up to each Scout County to arrange their own assessment process.
The real shame is that there are some good, competant, enthusiastic Scout leaders out there taking youngsters for some very worthwhile activities to our hills, crags and caves; but their credibility is totaly undermined by faulty assessment system.
Whenever I discuss this, I am told "all Scout Assessors are volunteers," and "things are better now than they used to be."
But surely:- volunteers should be volunteering to do things to the correct standard, and although things are better than they used to be, they can still get better !
Come on Scouts, join the 21st century.
 
Paul Greenfield said:
The real shame is that there are some good, competant, enthusiastic Scout leaders out there taking youngsters for some very worthwhile activities to our hills, crags and caves; but their credibility is totaly undermined by faulty assessment system.

But if you gold-plate the qualifications needed to assess - then it'll be harder to find enough assessors to sign-off your permits - and so the young people won't get out into the hills, crags & caves at all. The activity won't happen. Similarly you could insist on the scout leaders getting full NGB qualifications to run activities instead of ones assessed internally and this would no doubt have the same effect.

FWIW, if you intend to assess for multi-pitch climbing leadership permits - you do need the Mountain Instructor Award - similarly you need to be CIC if you are assessing permits for caving with SRT for the group. If you are assessing for scout leaders wishing to supervise occasional trips to a climbing wall - or a non-vertical cave/mine - is it really necessary for the assessor to hold the higher award?
 

Gollum

New member
Paul Greenfield said:
It is a shame that Scouting keeps doing this - it destroys all ceribility for Scouting Activity Authorisations in the world outside of Scouting.
For hill-walking, Scouts use the Mountain Leader as the assessor qualification, everyone else uses the Mountain Instructor Award.
For climbing, Scouts use the Single Pitch Award as the assessor qualification, everyone else uses the Mountain Instructor Award.
For caving, Scouts use the LCLMA (levels 1 & 2) as the assessor qualification, everyone else uses the Cave Instructor Certificate.
Any system where an assessor can assess others to his / her own technical standard (eg an M.L. holder authorising others to M.L. standard) will lack credibility !
Currently Scouting will not produce a register of all their Count Activity Assessors, so no-one knows who they are, or what qualifications they hold; it appears to be up to each Scout County to arrange their own assessment process.
The real shame is that there are some good, competant, enthusiastic Scout leaders out there taking youngsters for some very worthwhile activities to our hills, crags and caves; but their credibility is totaly undermined by faulty assessment system.
Whenever I discuss this, I am told "all Scout Assessors are volunteers," and "things are better now than they used to be."
But surely:- volunteers should be volunteering to do things to the correct standard, and although things are better than they used to be, they can still get better !
Come on Scouts, join the 21st century.

I agree totally
As i said in an earlier post you wouldn't allow a driver to assess if a person is safe to drive.
I am level 2 LCMLA but I can't and shouldn't be allowed to say who can take groups safely underground. Even a CIC has to train and jump through hoops before they are allowed to train and assess LCMLA scheme.
Sadly Scouts will continue to operate like this until something goes wrong and the Sh*t hits the fan
 

phizz4

Member
I have to take issue with some of these comments, about ML/SPA/LCML1/2 being under-qualified to assess other people's abilities to lead scout groups.
In my county I have to have a county permit to drive a minibus. I have to be assessed on my driving ability every 5 years. This assessment is done by another driver who is on the list of the counties approved assessors, who may be a licenced driving instructor or a retired policeman. He is no more 'qualified' than me.
When I did my ML and SPA assessments, the course leader was an MIA, but all of the other assessors with us had the ML and/or SPA qualification.
In our county, as a team, we moderate each others assessments, both within county and between counties. Last year we had a refresher/moderation day with an MIC, who looked at the way that we run our assessment courses and the standard that we work to. He was very impressed with both our methods and our standards.
With Scout association assessments, the permit scheme allows permits to be as wide or as restrictive as we wish. Hence, I feel competent to assess a scout leader to lead groups down, for example Devonshire, having seen them do so successfully, and their permit would only allow them to do that cave, if that is appropriate to their experience.
If we all had to have MIA/MIC/CIC qualifications the range of activities that scouts can enjoy would virtually cease to exist. These are professional qualifications that most scout leaders would not have the time or money to acquire.

 
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