Author Topic: Caving Activity Badge  (Read 4470 times)

Offline idriswilliams

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Caving Activity Badge
« on: November 28, 2015, 02:31:43 pm »
Hi,

Any one else notice that the Explorer Scout Caving Activity badge has suddenly been dumbed down?
It always used to involve 6 additinal trips 3 of which involved vertical descents.

Now just 2 additional trips!  All without consultation as per usual!

In my opinion the overall content of both badges gave a good grounding in caving, particularly if the study involved learning basic SRT. What would have made it better would have been ti become a staged activity badge so that Explorers could gain the Scout badge (if not having done it as a Scout) and if Scouts could have made a start on Explorer badge before going up.

Idris

Offline PaulW

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Re: Caving Activity Badge
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2015, 02:51:44 pm »
yes two additional trips on top of the 4 required for the scout caving badge

but also (full badge requirements),


Explain how caves are formed.

Rig and use ladder pitch under supervision.

Take two additional caving trips as part of a properly authorised party. These should include supervised descent of vertical pitches.

Know the cave conservation code and talk about measures that can be taken to promote conservation of formations and the cave environment.

Study an aspect of speleology and discuss the findings. Agree your chosen subject with your leader first – it could cover subjects like the fauna and flora in caves, cave photography or bat conservation.


Of which only cave conservation code is in the scout caving badge
They certainly dont have to rig and use a ladder pitch for the scout caving badge

I cant find the 'old' requirements, but there is progression from scout badge to explorer badge which is good

Offline mrodoc

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Re: Caving Activity Badge
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2015, 04:46:03 pm »
Back in the 50's Ray Winch was bemoaning the fact that Scouts weren't very adventurous so nothing has changed there. His group in Chard were rather different. They found a patch of limestone 15 miles away cycled over to it and ended up finding a new 300 metre system. They also fundraised to buy electron ladder. The group known as the Hawks turned into the East Devon Caving Group formed from school leavers from Chard School. I wrote up the history of the club for a Belfry Bulletin a couple of years ago after Simon Brooks introduced me to a former member who had kept a caving log of his trips at the time.

Offline idriswilliams

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Re: Caving Activity Badge
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2015, 12:12:29 pm »
yes two additional trips on top of the 4 required for the scout caving badge

but also (full badge requirements),


Explain how caves are formed.

Rig and use ladder pitch under supervision.

Take two additional caving trips as part of a properly authorised party. These should include supervised descent of vertical pitches.

Know the cave conservation code and talk about measures that can be taken to promote conservation of formations and the cave environment.

Study an aspect of speleology and discuss the findings. Agree your chosen subject with your leader first – it could cover subjects like the fauna and flora in caves, cave photography or bat conservation.


Of which only cave conservation code is in the scout caving badge
They certainly dont have to rig and use a ladder pitch for the scout caving badge

I cant find the 'old' requirements, but there is progression from scout badge to explorer badge which is good

The old badge requirements are identical except that number of trips has been reduced from 6 to 2.

Idris Williams

Offline PaulW

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Re: Caving Activity Badge
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2015, 12:23:55 pm »
Before you attempt this badge you need to have made at least four trips underground, with a properly authorised party, to two different cave systems and kept a log. If you hold the Scout Caver activity badge you don’t need to complete these four trips.


Offline bagpuss

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Re: Caving Activity Badge
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2015, 12:37:00 pm »
Can Scouts obtain the badge if they cave with parent/s rather than their group? My daughter's Scout group doesn't go caving, but I think she's probably met most the criteria with us..

Offline PaulW

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Re: Caving Activity Badge
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2015, 12:59:32 pm »
It does state 'with a properly authorised party' I would discuss it with her leaders,

Where abouts are you based, there maybe a caving team in your area that can take her group underground?

Paul W

Offline JoshW

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Re: Caving Activity Badge
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2015, 02:53:34 pm »
If your daughter can show the evidence that she's completed the requirements, then the scout leader should be happy to present her with her caving badge.

Shouldn't need to be a trip with a caving team as such, just someone who's able to show caving best practice.

First step is talk to scout leader and say "X has completed X% of the requirements with me/others, what evidence is required in order to obtain the caving badge".

If the leader has little to no experience of caving they'll likely turn around and say that your daughter should submit a small report of experience of caving and get it to be signed by a relevant individual (you).

If they have some experience of caving, they'll probably run through the requirements asking relevant questions.

If they're feeling particularly 'proper' they'll arrange for a member of the local caving team to come in and ask the questions, but this is highly unlikely.

Offline bagpuss

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Re: Caving Activity Badge
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2015, 04:47:34 pm »
It does state 'with a properly authorised party' I would discuss it with her leaders,

Where abouts are you based, there maybe a caving team in your area that can take her group underground?

Paul W

Thanks,  we are based in Bristol

Offline robjones

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Re: Caving Activity Badge
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2015, 08:07:54 pm »
Three and four years ago my two sons got their caving and advanced caving badges based mainly on trips with me and my mate (their godfather), and partly on trips with the caving club that my mate and I are members of. I appended a note stating my mate and my lengths of experience, involvement as club officers, etc. This reflected that the Carmarthenshire troop they were members of hadn't been caving for decades. In both cases my sons considerably exceeded the minimum number of trips and had kept detailed logs including some photos and marked-up xeroxes of survey extracts - this may have helped as they had not merely done the minimum requirements. They took a load of gear in and did a 'show and tell' as part of their assessments. Interpretations may vary between troops and between scoutmasters as my younger son found when he had to switch troop between getting his caving badge and getting his climbing badge - the new scoutmaster was very sceptical of my son having undertaken the climbs in his log (he later said to me that he was inclined not to award the badge) until my son took gear in and and gave a well-informed show and tell.

So - caving with parents and their mates should be okay for the badge but it wouldn't hurt to chat with the scoutmaster ahead of time.

Offline idriswilliams

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Re: Caving Activity Badge
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2015, 05:18:45 pm »
Hi,

As others have said probably depends on the Scout Leader concerned about the lengths he/she would go to before accepting this. The part that one should be wary of though is the rigging and operating a ladder pitch though. Ordinary cavers are dangerous with ladders, and very few modern cavers have used ladders. It is a dying art except amongst the holders of BCA awards or Scout Caving permits! Mind you looking back my generation took scary risks without understanding the risks!

Idris Williams 

Offline Greg Jones

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Re: Caving Activity Badge
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2015, 07:58:26 pm »
 :o
Renegade!

Online droid

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Re: Caving Activity Badge
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2015, 08:35:24 pm »
Hi,

As others have said probably depends on the Scout Leader concerned about the lengths he/she would go to before accepting this. The part that one should be wary of though is the rigging and operating a ladder pitch though. Ordinary cavers are dangerous with ladders, and very few modern cavers have used ladders. It is a dying art except amongst the holders of BCA awards or Scout Caving permits! Mind you looking back my generation took scary risks without understanding the risks!

Idris Williams

Condescending crap.
No longer 'Exceptionally antagonistic' 'Deliberately inflammatory'

Offline PaulW

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Re: Caving Activity Badge
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2015, 08:44:13 pm »
You have left yourself wide open to criticism there Idris, and rightfully so

You are basically saying that unless you are a BCA holder or scout permit holder, then no one else in the caving world is capable of using a ladder and lifeline in a safe manner, a brave statement to make.

I can say I have also seen both LMCLA and scout permit holders using ladders and lifelines in a less than safe manner

So like others I completely disagree with what you have said

Paul W
(scout permit holder)

Offline Rhys

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Re: Caving Activity Badge
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2015, 08:50:12 pm »
I think Idris' last comment should probably be read with a bit of a pinch of salt - I think it was a little bit tongue in cheek.

That's how I read it anyway. But then, I have known him a long time...

Rhys

Online Fulk

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Re: Caving Activity Badge
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2015, 10:59:43 am »
Well, it doesn't look tongue in cheek to me – but then, I don't know him.

Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: Caving Activity Badge
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2015, 11:07:21 am »
I think Idris' last comment should probably be read with a bit of a pinch of salt - I think it was a little bit tongue in cheek.

That's how I read it anyway. But then, I have known him a long time...

Rhys
That's how I read it too!

Offline JoshW

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Re: Caving Activity Badge
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2015, 11:12:58 am »
potentially tongue in cheek, but probably fair to say ill-advised to have worded it like that on a caving forum as head of a caving association (ASCT).

Scout caving has had it's fair share of stick on this forum fairly recently, and the way the post comes across is very 'us and them' which doesn't help the integration that I think this subforum set out to do.

Maybe Idris can clarify his comment?

Offline bagpuss

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Re: Caving Activity Badge
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2015, 08:08:56 am »
Presuming the ladder pitch rigging is more for the Explorer award?  She's only 11 so would be doing the standard Scout badge.  If she did get to the ladder rigging stage our club very much still uses them,  I  personally can't afford or justify buying SRT kit for the type of caving I do.

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: Caving Activity Badge
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2015, 08:20:19 am »
Does Bare Grilles have a scout caving badge?

Offline PaulW

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Re: Caving Activity Badge
« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2015, 10:30:29 am »
Does Bare Grilles have a scout caving badge?

He wouldn't get one from me !!!

Offline PaulW

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Re: Caving Activity Badge
« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2015, 10:34:34 am »
Presuming the ladder pitch rigging is more for the Explorer award?  She's only 11 so would be doing the standard Scout badge.  If she did get to the ladder rigging stage our club very much still uses them,  I  personally can't afford or justify buying SRT kit for the type of caving I do.

Yes ladder pitch is for the Explorer badge.
I will post up links to the badges later when I am not on my phone. Unless someone beats me to it.

Offline JoshW

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Re: Caving Activity Badge
« Reply #22 on: December 03, 2015, 10:45:38 am »

Offline PaulW

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Re: Caving Activity Badge
« Reply #23 on: December 03, 2015, 11:57:18 am »
Cheers Josh knew you'd have plenty of time sitting in the office  :thumbsup:

Offline idriswilliams

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Re: Caving Activity Badge
« Reply #24 on: December 03, 2015, 05:03:21 pm »
Hi,

Original requrements for the badges are still posted here.

http://shropshirescouts.org.uk/activities/cavingreport2013/caving-cavers-badge/

I'm undecided about whether to ignore this dumbed down version or call it Stage 2. I have always felt that the Badges should be a staged badge.  The Scout Badge being stage 1 & Explorer Scout bage being stage 2, giving the Explorer Scout chance to get something he can wear right away & allowing the Scout to start the second stage before being an Explorer.

Perhaps we now have a 3 stage badge!

Idris