Youth and Development AGM Report 2018-2019

[cap n chris]

...as Scout groups and Uni?s seem to be the only way that young people get into the sport nowadays.

Don't overlook the instructed caving sector which takes thousands of under 18s caving every year - unfortunately, those who find it right up their street have few options to progress to any next step because they would find too many closed doors but mercifully the Scouts and Y&D have been making major in-roads in that regard. A fundamental flaw in this country is the drinking age culture around which clubs and councils seem to revolve (where do they hold many of their meetings/AGMs for example).

Unis are for adults. Youth = under 18.

NCA/BCA could have engaged the services of licensed outdoor centres at various regional hubs to provide focused weekend-long subsidised caving experiences but it probably wouldn't have got off the ground for many reasons. Doesn't mean it can't though. Other countries do. 

 

[nearlywhite]

Bradw, nearlywhite is the BCA Youth and Development officer. Yes, thank you for this, but I know what Rostam is, and I know who you are, and I was rather hoping for an answer from Rostam himself. I asked if he had MET them, not SPOKEN to them. It makes a big difference! This is a crucial matter this report, and it would be good to hear from the man himself rather than the receptionist 

You know 'what' I am? What a strange way of phrasing it Tony.

Will has been the lead on this issue and has done a tremendous job, I'm much more his secretary on this matter than the other way around. Irrespective of that I have discussed things and kept up to date with the topic so I'll keep my answer brief.

It has been made very clear on multiple occasions that we aren't welcome at CCC meetings, I offered to attend the last one in person, offered to write a statement but both were declined. They aren't open meetings and we struggle to even find out where and when they are. I have met a few of the people involved in person but not at a meeting. Hopefully this report will force that to happen.

Maybe Darkness Below could livestream the event in the name of transparency.

 

[BradW]

Sorry about that Rostam. I started typing 'what post he holds' but changed it and messed up my edit. Nothing personal. Thanks for the clarification as it kinda makes it clearer to me whats going on here. I can't recall ever going by the name Tony, by the way. Perhaps we should stick to whats important, dont you think? The issue at stake is access and age limits and thats what I think needs to be resolved dispassionately and respectfully.

 

[ian.p]

Rostam and Will you are doing an outstanding job. BCA should stand up for cavers when access bodies no longer represent them. Youth membership is a minority group in cccs member clubs this does not mean they have any less right to access and representation by the access bodies and BCA. I am a member of a ccc member club, have regularly taken youth groups into ccc caves for many years and will continue to do so I will happily put my hand up and say I do not give a toss what ccc's executive says they do not represent me and I will issue a key to leaders taking under 18s weather the executive likes it or not.

 

[ian.p]

This is a personal stance not that of my club

 

[BradW]

I am not sure you can ignore your connection to whichever club you refer to if you are issuing or using their keys on their behalf. Take care, Ian.

 

[Cavematt]

I echo what Ian has said; Excellent work by Rostam and Will. This kind of pro-activeness is exactly what the BCA needs at the moment 

 

[NewStuff]

I am not sure you can ignore your connection to whichever club you refer to if you are issuing or using their keys on their behalf. Take care, Ian.

I suspect he can do whatever the hell he feels like. I suspect he doesn't give any more of a toss about your thinly veiled threats anymore than he gives a toss about the CCC's 'ban' on under 18's.

 

[paul]

[gmod]Can we please keep the discussion civil.[/gmod]

 

[BradW]

Thank you Paul. Ian please don't feel threatened!

 

[Ed]

Simple really......if the old duffers don't seem to accommodate the youth they will become irrelevant and the young guns will just do what they want and ignore the 'its my kingdom brigade'

 

[BradW]

Some light relief, ladies and gentlemen.

http://www.danknessbelow.co.uk/

 

[suddenlywill_]

Not wanting to sound radical, but perhaps the best way to get under 18s caving in a safe/conservation-minded way is to support them, facilitate access, get them caving with established groups etc - otherwise they'll be forced to break into places and learn conservation principles the hard way?

Sorry for the late reply but imho, this is a main part of the issue and bears repeating; and considering what's been happening with mine entrances throughout the country, we're already seeing the consequences of this. As more and more people break into systems and then upload this to youtube for everyone to see, more and more people are going to emulate them. And once that happens locking people out of caves because of their age, for example, is just going to be seen as elitism and it will only alienate young cavers further.

Obviously I'm not suggesting we have no restrictions on access at all, but there's a stage when restricting access so people don't kill themselves or destroy the system becomes restricting access for it's own sake and then it's simply counterproductive

 

[cap n chris]

...otherwise they'll be forced to break into places

No-one is being forced to become a criminal.

...and learn conservation principles the hard way?

You mean not learn conservation principles at all, by breaking stuff presumably? Not entirely sure this logically stacks up, imo.

I'm not suggesting we have no restrictions on access at all, but there's a stage when restricting access so people don't kill themselves or destroy the system becomes restricting access for it's own sake

Pretty sure it's not restricting access for its own sake but, as you rightly point out, it's restricting access so people don't kill themselves or destroy the system. You answered your own question.

 

[Oscar D]

...otherwise they'll be forced to break into places

No-one is being forced to become a criminal.

...and learn conservation principles the hard way?

You mean not learn conservation principles at all, by breaking stuff presumably? Not entirely sure this logically stacks up, imo.

I'm not suggesting we have no restrictions on access at all, but there's a stage when restricting access so people don't kill themselves or destroy the system becomes restricting access for it's own sake

Pretty sure it's not restricting access for its own sake but, as you rightly point out, it's restricting access so people don't kill themselves or destroy the system. You answered your own question.

Seems to me as though a lot of landowners would rather not bother with managing access to caves on their land and so either brick them up or make getting access such hassle than next to no one bothers. I don?t believe so many of them care for the safety of others, they just don?t want to get any bad press or be seen as responsible if anything does happen. There are ways of keeping any nosy passers by out whilst also allowing proper cavers in.

 

[Oscar D]

Also, sorry about the thread hijack, that?s the last I?ll say on the matter.  :ang:

 

[2xw]

The charterhouse under 18 rules have nothing to do with protecting children or protecting the caves. They are supposedly about protecting the access controlling body against hypothetical (but realistically non existent) liability.

 

[Joel Corrigan]

Long ago we had a callout in South Wales for a 15 year old lad who went missing down Garth Iron Mine.  He abseiled down a shaft using baler twine (complete with birth certificate edge protector) & came to rest on a ledge about 60m above a sump.  He couldn't climb back up the 15m string so we had to collect him.  We (some of the rescuers) had intended to pass on our details so that we could introduce him to the uni club but for various reasons that never happened.  What we felt at the time was that although he'd put himself & others at risk he was brimming with the spirit of adventure & we wanted to nurture rather than squash that. A decade later he got in touch saying that he'd become a caver & an outdoor instructor & that he was very grateful for the encouragement that we showed him during that wet & windy night.

The Dachstein Exped was recently approached by a 17 year old lad who wants to join us on the trip this summer & after a total of about three sentences between some of the organisers we decided to invite him along on the condition that (a), he gets insurance & (b), his family scribble something down on paper stating that they're aware that shit happens.  This whole thing about restricting kids from caving is a disgrace that should have been booted into touch years ago & I applaud those who are trying to make this happen.  Ian Pikey-Poo gets my pat on the back for discarding those absurd rules.

 

[suddenlywill_]

Pretty sure it's not restricting access for its own sake but, as you rightly point out, it's restricting access so people don't kill themselves or destroy the system. You answered your own question.

Without wanting to derail the thread, I'm unsure how a CCC blanket ban on under 18s can be justified in the interests of safety etc. There are 16/17 year old (and probably a few younger) cavers who are more than competent enough to go into a lot of caves in mendip and the rest of the UK, and stick to conservation rules and keep themselves safe, although granted there are also lot of people of a similar age who may not be suited to unsupervised caving. I guess the challenge for access bodies is not letting the latter get in the way of younger cavers trying to get involved in the sport, and imo, CCC haven't even made an attempt to do that.

Clearly, this all depends on where you draw the line between a justified restriction on access and an unjustifiable one, and we both have our reasons for drawing that line where we do.

 

[BradW]

There is no blanket ban on u18s in CCC caves. The current rules allow some access for 16 and 17 year olds. It amazes me that nobody here seems to have bothered looking at the CCC website where this can easily be seen. It was the first thing I went to check when this topic started. There are restrictions on numbers and paperwork, but no ban on u18s. If you are sincere about understanding this you should do the research. Clearly most are simply happy to accept what others post as gospel.

I would like to see better access sorted to the satisfaction of all parties including cavers, CCC, and the owners. I don't think false information peddled as fact really helps.