Youth and Development AGM Report 2018-2019

[Ian Adams]

Having slept on this, I now predict that if this ill-conceived plan comes to fruition, it will lead to the eventual demise of the BCA as a meaningful entity. Well done for forging another coffin nail.

The BCA's repeated refusal to get behind it's members, it's failure to listen to it's members and it's unwillingness to embrace progression represent the nails it is hammering into it's own coffin.

People like Rostram have been doing their utmost to work with the BCA but are repeatedly knocked back.

Each time the BCA does this, it's another wound to the body.



Ian

 

[BradW]

Ian I have to agree with your first point. I would also love to see u18s better accommodated. But alienating fellow cavers by threatening them with expulsion is extremely poor form. This war against certain factions and individuals has to stop. Reasonable cavers must stand up and say so in no uncertain terms. When two parties are not cooperating the shortcoming rarely lies with one party alone. Blame shifting solves nothing. A hammer is not a very useful tool healing wounds. Surgery is the last tool in the doctor's bag. Targetted and appropriate medication is the best solution, followed by serious changes iin life style.

 

[droid]

Playing Devil's Advocate: it might also be that certain individuals don't get their own way in discussions and throw the dummy out....

 

[Badlad]

I've never really understood the reasons for a ban on under 18s (or under 16s for that matter).  I have read some of the advice (Sheffield Hallam) referred to in the OP and listened to the Y&D reports with interest.  As far as I am aware there are no landowners or access bodies in the Dales region who have even considered such a ban.  I'd like to think youth caving is very much encouraged across the board.

The BCA membership through both the CHECC questionnaire and the larger Mission & Vision Group questionnaire both had campaigning for better access prominent in the results.  Both CRoW ballots showed similar support.  Therefore I think BCA will have confidence that working for improvements to access for all is doing the right thing on behalf of the membership and wider caving community.  Certainly there would not be much cave instructor work if an under 18 ban was introduced more widely.

Reading this discussion further it seems that the reason for the ban is only to protect the ACB.  The landowner has not prescribed the restriction and according to the report was unaware of the ban.  The SWT and that sort of organisation are usually duty bound to be open to everyone especially young people. 

Perhaps the ACB has tied itself in a legal knot it cannot get out of.  The answer may be to disband the Charterhouse and set up a new ACB in a form which can allow young people underground.

 

[David Rose]

The whole issue of age limits has become ludicrous and disgraceful. Go to any popular crag, or any indoor climbing wall, and you will see numerous people aged less than 18 enjoying themselves. And indeed, some will be much younger than 16. At my local wall, they often have kids' parties, in which children aged 8 or 9 will be belayed up the 15 metre leading walls. I've seen 12 year olds leading competently on decent routes at places such as Tremadog and Stanage. I've taken my own kids up multi-pitch routes in Snowdonia when they were that age or younger. 

How on earth did anyone ever think that caving was in some unique category that meant any under 18 who signed a waiver in order to risk the fearsome depths of GB Cavern was denying themselves a human right? Where did this ridiculous rule originate? What could possibly justify it? And how could any BCA official have entertained this nonsense for more than half a second?

More to the point, how have we let anyone get away with this, and indeed, any age limits of 16? My son is 15, and as Badlad will attest, pretty competent. The other day we all (son Daniel, Tim and I) went down to the bottom of Juniper Gulf. A smooth, enjoyable trip down a proper grade 4 pothole. Daniel has done many equivalent or harder trips and is extremely responsible when it comes to issues such as not crossing conservation tape.

But because we live in the south, we are hugely limited as to where we can go, unless we make the 4 hour drive to the Dales.  I am staggered by some of what is in the original post here. Secret legal questions? Advice being jettisoned with no democratic debate? No disclosure to the BCA council? Enough, already. Somehow, this situation has to be brought to a decisive end. 

 

[2xw]

It's not included in the report but I am informed the U16 ban is justified in advice received over the telephone during a private audience between charterhouse and the barrister, (presumably) paid for by the BCA. The results are not minuted or written down as far as I know.

 

[nearlywhite]

It's not included in the report but I am informed the U16 ban is justified in advice received over the telephone during a private audience between charterhouse and the barrister, (presumably) paid for by the BCA. The results are not minuted or written down as far as I know.

It's stuff like this that is completely unacceptable.

That would be illegal, surely, and other agencies would therefore be involved in rectifying it.

That is incredibly telling. And sad. You can't rely on everyone having the resources to sue. It's important that a governing body tries to foster an environment where people can get support and tell people what's going on.

Having slept on this, I now predict that if this ill-conceived plan comes to fruition, it will lead to the eventual demise of the BCA as a meaningful entity. Well done for forging another coffin nail.

I don't think you appreciate what 'the plan' is. There is no motion to exclude CCC ltd, there are only requests for disclosure, a stark warning that the way this issue has been handled by both sides has been highly unsatisfactory and that unless we follow disclosure the only avenue left is escalation. Obviously I disagree that this is ill conceived - we have to get to a place where we are on our members side and able to help them. Currently we're not even allowed in the same room. People will read into this report what they want to, and see a 'northern' 'interventionist' BCA interfering with local access on Mendip - it's a million miles away from that, it's local Mendip cavers trying to sort out an issue without access to all the facts, unsure of what's going on that leads to the can being kicked down the road.

I don't especially want to have my time wasted fighting with an ACB, I'd rather do the 5 other ticks. Surprisingly though I feel answerable to the membership that ask us for help.

 

[nearlywhite]

And generally in response to the accusations of bullying: stating what the BCA secretary does isn't bullying, it's a matter of record. It's certainly not hazing. I assume this ad hominem comes from the fact assertions it's unconstitutional have been demonstrated to be codswallop. And as for spitting the dummy out Droid: what we are trying to avoid is a situation like Draenen - that's what happens when you keep things secret.

 

[BradW]

Nearlywhite, have you met in person any of tbe CCC directors to discuss this, or do you have plans to do so? As you appear to be seriously involved, I suggest you do, and maybe find out that they are rational people with whom you can progress things. Raising the prospect of expulsion is unnecessary coercion and completely out of order and has serious ramifications for all BCA members who might have alternative ways of doing things that dont fit the BCA party line.

 

[2xw]

Bradw, nearlywhite is the BCA Youth and Development officer.
He has certainly talked extensively with the people involved, who have had over two years to progress things but have chosen to fight to regress them.

I don't see discrimination as "a different way of doing things" do you? Is including all BCA members in access agreements such a radical idea?

 

[NewStuff]

Is including all BCA members in access agreements such a radical idea?

If you're from Mendip, yeah, probably.

 

[Oscar D]

Access to many caves in many areas is restricted for Under 18's in one way or another. It's a right bugger as many of them are fine systems. I can't wait to finally be able to visit Peak cavern in a few months as well as Aggy. I know there's no simple solution as you can't exactly have a bunch of clueless 12 year old's wandering around in these places but in my opinion, correctly equipped and experienced parties of Under 18's should be allowed access.

 

[aricooperdavis]

Not wanting to sound radical, but perhaps the best way to get under 18s caving in a safe/conservation-minded way is to support them, facilitate access, get them caving with established groups etc - otherwise they'll be forced to break into places and learn conservation principles the hard way?

 

[2xw]

OS- Actually there are very, very few caves where access is banned for U18s, a few with restrictions (such as peak and places like upper flood, but these have the same restrictions as for adults). Most of these caves are southward (none that I know of in Yorkshire have access restrictions for U18s and very few in Derbyshire). I'm pretty sure you can go in peak by signing the same forms as the adults (will have to check) if you have an adult wiling to sign this for you - the TSG manage peak pretty well


Just so we're not sounding too negative - there are lots of ACBs that do a great job of balancing U18s access with the need to respect other restrictions (conservation, permits etc). Personally I think the DCCs handling of Alderley Edge is a shining example in this regard. I wonder how many hundreds or thousands have explored those places with the scouts, facilitated by the DCC?

 

[BradW]

Bradw, nearlywhite is the BCA Youth and Development officer.
He has certainly talked extensively with the people involved, who have had over two years to progress things but have chosen to fight to regress them.

I don't see discrimination as "a different way of doing things" do you? Is including all BCA members in access agreements such a radical idea?

Yes, thank you for this, but I know what Rostam is, and I know who you are, and I was rather hoping for an answer from Rostam himself. I asked if he had MET them, not SPOKEN to them. It makes a big difference! This is a crucial matter this report, and it would be good to hear from the man himself rather than the receptionist 

 

[Oscar D]

OS- Actually there are very, very few caves where access is banned for U18s, a few with restrictions (such as peak and places like upper flood, but these have the same restrictions as for adults). Most of these caves are southward (none that I know of in Yorkshire have access restrictions for U18s and very few in Derbyshire). I'm pretty sure you can go in peak by signing the same forms as the adults (will have to check) if you have an adult wiling to sign this for you - the TSG manage peak pretty well


Just so we're not sounding too negative - there are lots of ACBs that do a great job of balancing U18s access with the need to respect other restrictions (conservation, permits etc). Personally I think the DCCs handling of Alderley Edge is a shining example in this regard. I wonder how many hundreds or thousands have explored those places with the scouts, facilitated by the DCC?

I?m not referring to an out right ban on being the situation in these places, but instead a system which requires Under 18?s to have an over 18 lead them. I understand that this may sound ridiculous to some but there are plenty of Under 18?s in the sport who are capable of doing their own trips in the caves and such restrictions hinder them from broadening their caving experiences.

 

[AR]

I'm pretty sure you can go in peak by signing the same forms as the adults (will have to check) if you have an adult wiling to sign this for you - the TSG manage peak pretty well

The Ecton Hill mines are another place where a parent/guardian can sign the waiver form on behalf of an under 18.

 

[Oscar D]

Just to add to my last post. As grateful as I am for the work of the Y&D, more resources need to be available to new cavers, as so many surveys and guides are the preserve of clubs. I have this forum to thank for a lot of the info I used to help get underground at first. Furthermore, more exposure of the sport to young people, as Scout groups and Uni?s seem to be the only way that young people get into the sport nowadays.

 

[Oscar D]

I'm pretty sure you can go in peak by signing the same forms as the adults (will have to check) if you have an adult wiling to sign this for you - the TSG manage peak pretty well

The Ecton Hill mines are another place where a parent/guardian can sign the waiver form on behalf of an under 18.

Last time I checked, a loco parentis was required for an Under 18 in Peak.

 

[alastairgott]

Off topic- Obviousspectre? Yeh, probably. Guess we'll have to try finding another entrance to peak. Shame cavers put a fan in one of them 


Under 18's can join the TSG for ?2, (BCA is free).