Cave damage

Roger W

Well-known member
SamT said:
Anyway - Please dont use Ammo boxes. They really should be consigned to the realms of the "This is what cavers used to use"

Apart from anything, they damage the cave (scratches - chips etc on flowstone floors).

Maybe off thread - should this be in the "conservation" section? - but I wonder how much damage has been done in time past by cavers with ammo boxes, hobnailed boots, gurt rolls of rope ladder, etc?

Or how much damage is still being done... :unsure:
 

SamT

Moderator
As suggested Roger. Moved from the equipment forum cause I reckon its a worthy of discussion.

Ive mentioned it before on this board but it astounds me that people still suggest the use of ammo tins when there Darren drums are a much better alternative and its not as though they are expensive.

As for your question. Then over the years I think there has probably been a lot of damage from the things you mention. Whether its been to the detriment of the cave is another matter.

Certain types of passage in caves are more robust that others. A flowstone floored crawl for instance can be a wonderful looking bit of cave - but is very susceptable to damage - especially from something like an ammo tin. Sure - carrying an ammo tin down the crabwalk in giants hole is probably not going to do much damage. but as you come back over the windpipe - and have to crawl through that flowstone squeeze - then you are going to be doing damage with it.

In well established bits of cave passage - then the damage has probably already been done eons ago, and this generation of cavers havent seen it any other way. But speaking from experience - when you open up a new bit of cave, its amazing how it changes in such a short space of time and with relatively few trips. Just the odd bit of stal caught in a careless moment with ones head. The slight loss of balace that causes a foot to stray into a gour.

I just think why do people bother with ammo tins when there are better and less damaging (to caves and knees) options available.
 

graham

New member
Depending on the cave, we've done a whole heap of damage, or virtually none at all.

Take OFD: the OFD streamway is a very high energy environment, vast quantities of water rush through it at great speed every year & the cumulative effect of this is significantly greater than anything that cavers do. However, much of the rest of the cave is, in contrast, a naturally low energy place and anyone looking at the walls and floor on any of the trade routes can se how battered they look.

Some years ago, Chris Howes did a Descent competition to identify a cave entrance. It did not recognise it at the time, but remember thinking "well it must be in the UK 'cos it's well-battered & must have seen a much higher traffic flow than most exotic caves". It was Link Pot.
 

Roger W

Well-known member
I agree - in a high-energy, active streamway situation, the effect of the water flow is probably going to completely out-do anything that (careful) cavers do.  But a lot of passage is low-energy, and it is surprising how little it takes to upset the balance of things and damage the environment.

I never realised just how delicate things could be until I read the excellent stuff on the Avalon website - now at http://www.scavalon.be/(y)

So what can we do to try to protect our caves?
 

Peter Burgess

New member
I think by far the greatest amount of wear caused to cave floors and walls, especially calcite, is simply the abrasion of mud and grit on cavers' boots and oversuits, and the wear from ammo boxes etc is minimal in comparison. There may be better things than ammo boxes to carry stuff in, but why do we not focus on the greater problem? The risk is that we all think we have done enough by 'discouraging' ammo boxes, when perhaps there is a great deal more to be considered.

Simply, don't barge your way through a cave with no consideration for the sensitive nature of the environment. Don't walk on clean calcite, or even on dirty calcite if there is an alternative route. Don't lean against walls or scrape your way along them if it isn't necessary. When a cave is in a pristine condition, consider the ultimate protection - don't go into the untouched areas if there is no need to, or make sure you are clean before you do so. Clean hands, clean clothing, clean boots. I remember reading that in in some places, cavers have taken a second set of gear and changed into it in order to protect the best parts.
 
T

tubby two

Guest
Peter Burgess said:
I think by far the greatest amount of wear caused to cave floors and walls, especially calcite, is simply the abrasion of mud and grit on cavers' boots and oversuits, and the wear from ammo boxes etc is minimal in comparison. There may be better things than ammo boxes to carry stuff in, but why do we not focus on the greater problem? The risk is that we all think we have done enough by 'discouraging' ammo boxes, when perhaps there is a great deal more to be considered.

Thats what i thought, most damage has to be done by cavers squeezing through crawls and ropes at pitch heads etc (Cap'n'Chris' photographic post in mendip showed a well worn floor that had been nicely polished up over many generations). But then you're also right in that even though ammo boxes cause damage, its worth making every difference you can.

I always think what a noticable difference there is between caves anyway, for example long churns- battered smooth over many years- versus some rarely visited parts of easegill. Or as a larger general comparison, mendip versus yorkshire. I know i've only done a few mendip trips and then the main tourist trade routes but the difference in caver numbers really shows, most of what i remember were smooth, bum-slide friendly floors and walls, which you only see in a few yorkshire caves. Or maybe its just where i go.

My point being, its cavers presence in general that damages caves, just think of where you see delicate mud formations...

tt.

p.s. No offence to the mendipians here!
 

Peter Burgess

New member
The large calcite formation at Swildons 20 is a classic example of cavers' degradation. Not only has the hanging of ladders from the large bolt driven into it worn a deep trough into the calcite, it also makes the ladder positively awkward if not dangerous to use. There are better and safer places to rig this pitch. Too late now, but could this have been avoided?
 

gus horsley

New member
A lot of the damage described so far has been inadvertant and unfortunately cannot be stopped, otherwise none of us could go caving.  But there is some damage that could have been prevented, even though it wasn't deliberate at the time, such as the damage to the tip of the Trident in OFD.  For a while the repair job was a lot worse than the original damage and there's still a distinct line where the bits were glued back together.  So, if an area of cave gets damaged by wear and tear is there any justification in trying to repair it?
 

SamT

Moderator
Peter Burgess said:
I think by far the greatest amount of wear caused to cave floors and walls, especially calcite, is simply the abrasion of mud and grit on cavers' boots and oversuits, and the wear from ammo boxes etc is minimal in comparison. There may be better things than ammo boxes to carry stuff in, but why do we not focus on the greater problem? The risk is that we all think we have done enough by 'discouraging' ammo boxes, when perhaps there is a great deal more to be considered.

Simply, don't barge your way through a cave with no consideration for the sensitive nature of the environment. Don't walk on clean calcite, or even on dirty calcite if there is an alternative route. Don't lean against walls or scrape your way along them if it isn't necessary. When a cave is in a pristine condition, consider the ultimate protection - don't go into the untouched areas if there is no need to, or make sure you are clean before you do so. Clean hands, clean clothing, clean boots. I remember reading that in in some places, cavers have taken a second set of gear and changed into it in order to protect the best parts.

Couldn't agree more - cave lightly - is the motto I think.  8)

Its the old conservation or preservation dilemma though.

In some places - there is no avoiding crawling over a pristine calcite floor - if you want to explore further - What do you do. To preserve it - you must gate/block the passage and let no man venture further. To conserve it - you must pass with as minimal damage as possible.

Anyhows - this all just started in response to a question on the Equipment forum where someone suggested the use of Ammo boxes for carrying stuff - This is a practice I'd like to see cease in the light of better alternatives.
 

Peter Burgess

New member
This is a practice I'd like to see cease in the light of better alternatives.

I would like to be able to continue to use my judgement on whether I can take my ammo box into a cave and not cause any damage to it. I believe that in most cases I can, and will continue to do so. I suppose I am naturally rebellious when I am told what I 'should' or 'should not' do. I am aware of the potential damage an ammo box can cause. I am capable of caving responsibly with it. I have a perfectly serviceable ammo box and do not intend to replace it with anything all the while it does its job well, and as long as I find it convenient to take my bits and bobs around in it.

So there!! ;)
 

SamT

Moderator
Fair do's peter. :)  But the start of this was a question by wormster

I'm getting into this caving lark, and I wanted to pick the collective brains of a seasond bunch of cavers.
which is better to keep kit dry??
a drysack or darren drum?
now i realise that if you have a DD at the bottom of your kitscak its going to provide some bouyancy, handy in wet caves, whereas a drysack could possibly take up less space allowing more kit to be carried.
I'd value your thoughts / opinions guys :please:

To which someone suggested ammo box's

If you've got an ammo box already and are happy using it AND you handle it in a considerate way then cool - nobodys saying you cant.

but really someone new to the sport shouldn't go at and buy an ammo box when there are better alternatives. Thats all Im saying.  8)
 
T

tubby two

Guest
gus horsley said:
  So, if an area of cave gets damaged by wear and tear is there any justification in trying to repair it?

The collonades in Lancaster? Alright you can tell which one broke but its definatlet better back together.

tt.
 

gus horsley

New member
tubby two said:
gus horsley said:
  So, if an area of cave gets damaged by wear and tear is there any justification in trying to repair it?

The collonades in Lancaster? Alright you can tell which one broke but its definatlet better back together.

tt.

Yeah I suppose you're right when it comes to famous formations...
 

Roger W

Well-known member
In terms of "wear and tear" damage - rock worn smooth by generations of cavers' bums, etc. - I don't think there is much that could be done.

But when a nice piece of stal "comes away in your hand" or drops off at an unintentional tap from your helmet - how do you stick it back in place?

With all due respect to those who swear by the stuff, I don't think gaffa tape is the answer here!

In fact, I know from many years' experience of mending all sorts of things - pottery, glassware, toys, teeth - that a repair done using the wrong adhesive can be as bad as leaving the thing in pieces.

So what is the recommended stuff for sticking stalactites back together?  It needs to be strong, waterproof, colourless and - if possible - be something that won't interfere with the future natural development of the stal. 
 

graham

New member
Roger W said:
In terms of "wear and tear" damage - rock worn smooth by generations of cavers' bums, etc. - I don't think there is much that could be done.

But when a nice piece of stal "comes away in your hand" or drops off at an unintentional tap from your helmet - how do you stick it back in place?

With all due respect to those who swear by the stuff, I don't think gaffa tape is the answer here!

In fact, I know from many years' experience of mending all sorts of things - pottery, glassware, toys, teeth - that a repair done using the wrong adhesive can be as bad as leaving the thing in pieces.

So what is the recommended stuff for sticking stalactites back together?  It needs to be strong, waterproof, colourless and - if possible - be something that won't interfere with the future natural development of the stal. 

Having experimented with numerous types of resin, I can tell you it ain't a simple job.
 

gus horsley

New member
graham said:
Roger W said:
In terms of "wear and tear" damage - rock worn smooth by generations of cavers' bums, etc. - I don't think there is much that could be done.

But when a nice piece of stal "comes away in your hand" or drops off at an unintentional tap from your helmet - how do you stick it back in place?

With all due respect to those who swear by the stuff, I don't think gaffa tape is the answer here!

In fact, I know from many years' experience of mending all sorts of things - pottery, glassware, toys, teeth - that a repair done using the wrong adhesive can be as bad as leaving the thing in pieces.

So what is the recommended stuff for sticking stalactites back together?  It needs to be strong, waterproof, colourless and - if possible - be something that won't interfere with the future natural development of the stal. 

Having experimented with numerous types of resin, I can tell you it ain't a simple job.

If I remember correctly the Trident was repaired with some sort of araldite concoction and had bits of string keeping it together, so it looked rather sad for some time.  What amazed me was how someone had managed to "accidentally" knock the end off in the first place, seeing as how it was taped off and suspended some distance above a pool in a large passage.  I can imagine a scenario whereby a bunch of novices emerge on the surface, one produces the end of the stal from within his oversuit with a stupid grin on his face, the leader goes spare, swears everyone to secrecy because his reputation's on the line, and does a lightning trip back to the scene of the crime to chuck the evidence in the pool.
 

graham

New member
gus horsley said:
If I remember correctly the Trident was repaired with some sort of araldite concoction and had bits of string keeping it together, so it looked rather sad for some time.  What amazed me was how someone had managed to "accidentally" knock the end off in the first place, seeing as how it was taped off and suspended some distance above a pool in a large passage.  I can imagine a scenario whereby a bunch of novices emerge on the surface, one produces the end of the stal from within his oversuit with a stupid grin on his face, the leader goes spare, swears everyone to secrecy because his reputation's on the line, and does a lightning trip back to the scene of the crime to chuck the evidence in the pool.

It was you then ...  :eek:
 
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