Author Topic: BCA AGM 2019 in Horton-in-Ribblesdale  (Read 5518 times)

Offline NewStuff

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Re: BCA AGM 2019 in Horton-in-Ribblesdale
« Reply #25 on: May 09, 2019, 06:14:49 am »
Unfortunately it seems that the exec remains firm on this and I will no longer be involved with the BCA

and the shenanigans continue...

I'm going to need more popcorn before this shitshow is over and the dust settles.
Permission? Wassat den?

Online mikem

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Re: BCA AGM 2019 in Horton-in-Ribblesdale
« Reply #26 on: May 09, 2019, 07:09:45 am »
Oh FFS, most older members will identify the requirement for a signature to mean it must be on paper & "in any format" meaning it doesn't matter how it's laid out on the page. Email probably wasn't even considered an option when the Constitution was written. After all, anyone wishing to join BCA has to use an application form & club reps have to bring a letter to AGM, so it's an understandable interpretation of what is written down, rather than an attempt to block an individual who could easily have complied if he hadn't left it to the last minute...

Also it doesn't prevent you from still contributing via Y & D.

Offline andrewmc

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Re: BCA AGM 2019 in Horton-in-Ribblesdale
« Reply #27 on: May 09, 2019, 08:02:12 am »
After all, anyone wishing to join BCA has to use an application form

No they don't - it can be done online.

Offline andrewmc

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Re: BCA AGM 2019 in Horton-in-Ribblesdale
« Reply #28 on: May 09, 2019, 08:07:46 am »
I smell a bit of nepotism hear.ie :- damein/robin.
Might be wrong though 😈😈

I would suggest you are (potentially rudely) barking up completely the wrong tree here.

In my (admittedly limited) dealings with Damien I have always found him very helpful; I am also aware that he was very involved in Eurospeleo 2016, amongst other things. I get the impression that Secretary is a thankless job with an awfully large workload as well as being essentially the BCA Council cat-herder (rounding up reports etc.). I wouldn't wish the job on anyone and regardless of day-to-day disputes I am very grateful to any Secretary who has done their part for the BCA.

Online mikem

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Re: BCA AGM 2019 in Horton-in-Ribblesdale
« Reply #29 on: May 09, 2019, 08:15:56 am »
After all, anyone wishing to join BCA has to use an application form

No they don't - it can be done online.
It can now, but couldn't when the Constitution was written in those terms...

Offline Madness

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Re: BCA AGM 2019 in Horton-in-Ribblesdale
« Reply #30 on: May 09, 2019, 08:18:34 am »
There are only three nominations for the three Individual Membership Representatives, so they will be elected unopposed.

They are:-
Tony Brocklebank
David Cooke
Philip Rowsell



Online mikem

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Re: BCA AGM 2019 in Horton-in-Ribblesdale
« Reply #31 on: May 09, 2019, 08:38:49 am »
I thought there were 2 club & 2 individual reps up for nominations?

Offline cavemanmike

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Re: BCA AGM 2019 in Horton-in-Ribblesdale
« Reply #32 on: May 09, 2019, 08:40:22 am »
Like I said.
I might be wrong.

Offline Bob Mehew

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Re: BCA AGM 2019 in Horton-in-Ribblesdale
« Reply #33 on: May 09, 2019, 08:50:27 am »
Email probably wasn't even considered an option when the Constitution was written.
Hi Mikem - Would you like to read the many hundreds of emails I exchanged when we wrote the BCA constitution? 

I won't claim we left the wording vague so as to include the potential of email as I have to admit we did update the constitution around 2010 to include 13.3 & 13.4.  But I do recall using fax machines to transmit legal documents as long ago as 1990.

PS whilst it is normally two individual reps, a third post is vacant so some how, someone is going to have to be selected for that 1 year term post.

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Re: BCA AGM 2019 in Horton-in-Ribblesdale
« Reply #34 on: May 09, 2019, 09:34:36 am »
Yeah, I meant an option for submitting signatures, rather than day to day use.

Did any of them only apply after they heard 3rd space was available? Otherwise ask them if prepared to stand for only one year & if not, a vote on it will be required...

Offline Cavematt

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Re: BCA AGM 2019 in Horton-in-Ribblesdale
« Reply #35 on: May 09, 2019, 10:31:27 am »
I have suggested that the current Executive contact the three applicants to suggest that they come to an agreement between themselves as to who will take the two-year posts and who will take the one year post. I'd rather it could be dealt with this way than via a complex election at the AGM.

The question is whether a two year post is actually more desirable than a one year...  :lol:
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Re: BCA AGM 2019 in Horton-in-Ribblesdale
« Reply #36 on: May 09, 2019, 11:12:29 am »
Alternatively one of them might not want to do it at all & stand down to let Will be co-opted into the one year post...

Offline andrewmc

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Re: BCA AGM 2019 in Horton-in-Ribblesdale
« Reply #37 on: May 09, 2019, 11:19:16 am »
Or (in the absence of agreement)...

It could be argued that the nominations were only for the two-year positions, and not the position of 'acting individual member representative'. In which case there should first be an election for the two-year positions, and then nominations for the one-year position (which would be vacant) could be taken from the floor :P

Offline nearlywhite

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Re: BCA AGM 2019 in Horton-in-Ribblesdale
« Reply #38 on: May 09, 2019, 12:59:34 pm »
My own personal position on Will not being on the ballot is that it is a farce of the highest order, due to a willful intent to leave him out of council. It's a shame that after all the necessary work Robin has done for BCA that he will be leaving under this cloud. I think that the AGM must be given a chance to keep the only member of council who has done anything to advance the DIM cause by comprehensively looking into online voting and actually advocating for them, unlike others who use the voting position to express personal views.

Either we elect no one or Will should be able to stand. Both would be constitutional as he communicated an intent to run before the deadline.

Offline Madness

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Re: BCA AGM 2019 in Horton-in-Ribblesdale
« Reply #39 on: May 09, 2019, 04:06:18 pm »
Correct me if I'm wrong:-

Tony Brocklebank - Anti-CRoW and Anti-Change.
David Cooke - Anti-CroW and Anti-Change
Philip Rowsell - ?

Will - Pro-CroW and Pro-Change.

Conspiracy theorists would have a field day!

Offline Jenny P

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Re: BCA AGM 2019 in Horton-in-Ribblesdale
« Reply #40 on: May 09, 2019, 06:06:38 pm »
Surely an email with the attachment of a scanned copy of a document incorporating the necessary information would have been sufficient?  As I understand it, the explicit demand for a paper version does seem unreasonable.  (As I understand it, such a document would be deemed sufficient evidence in a court of law.)

The problem may be that not everyone has access to a scanner if they happen to be away from their usual email set-up and working on a mobile phone.  There are quite a few ways to match up the original proposer and the seconder so that the two appear linked and the Secretary, on receipt, should be able to print out the two emails and could, as a final check reply to ask for confirmation.  There are several ways of doing this, provided you accept that email (if confirmed) is acceptable in the same way as writing on paper and, as I've said, the date/time record on the email ndicates when it was sent.

It would be a great pity if Will were not included as I believe he did his best to comply but, owing to being abroad and being told he was expected to produce written signatures, his proposal wasn't accepted.  I don't think this was a "conspiracy" but I do think it was something of a "cock up" with Robin trying to do the correct thing while perhaps misunderstanding the situation. 

I don't think it's helpful either to start guessing what people's view are re. CRoW and Change.  The whole point of a discussion at an AGM is to put your point of view and try to ensure that others see it your way but, if that isn't possible, you try to aim for a sensible compromise on how far you can move in the direction you want.  I would hope that we have got beyond trying to block things outright and can progress, even if it's perhaps a little slower than some would like.

CRoW is now settled as far as BCA is concerned and doesn't need to be revisited - we concentrate now on changing the views of Defra, etc. and ensuring that conservation issues are properly taken care of using the mechanism which already exists. 

Change is coming but how, exactly, and at what speed is the question now.  We have to work out how BCA Council will work in a changed situation and, IMHO, that hasn't yet been thought through properly - but hopefully this should be sorted out during the coming year.

Offline Ian Adams

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Re: BCA AGM 2019 in Horton-in-Ribblesdale
« Reply #41 on: May 09, 2019, 06:10:34 pm »
CRoW is now settled as far as BCA is concerned and doesn't need to be revisited - we concentrate now on changing the views of Defra, etc. and ensuring that


Are you stating that the mandate handed to the BCA by the result of the members referendum has been set aside, diminished or in some other way rejected?


Ian
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Offline Jenny P

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Re: BCA AGM 2019 in Horton-in-Ribblesdale
« Reply #42 on: May 09, 2019, 06:23:15 pm »
No, I'm saying that BCA now has the mandate and doesn't need to revisit it. 

However, BCA still has to work on convincing Defra and the powers that be in government that their current stance, which equates to, "it's only legal if you don't go out of daylight ..." is rubbish.  That's a whole other argument BCA has to win, to change officialdom's mind, but we now have the backing of our members to do it and it's being worked on. 

Offline Madness

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Re: BCA AGM 2019 in Horton-in-Ribblesdale
« Reply #43 on: May 09, 2019, 06:47:13 pm »
Has it not already been proven that regardless of the result of the BCA Members vote on the CRoW issue and the clear mandate that the BCA has to lobby DEFRA for a favourable resolution, that there are members of the BCA Council who are opposed to this.

Please correct me if I'm mistaken.

Online mikem

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Re: BCA AGM 2019 in Horton-in-Ribblesdale
« Reply #44 on: May 09, 2019, 11:29:04 pm »
But enough members of the council do support it to see that something will happen, however, we are a much smaller community than the BMC (they have over 1O times the membership of BCA, as includes walkers, as well as climbers & there are a lot more people that climb regularly who aren't members, than cave too). Some members do see issues with digging permission on access land, but similar concerns were proven to be minimal issues when the Scottish access code was set up. Plus the government are tied up in other things currently...

Offline Ian Adams

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Re: BCA AGM 2019 in Horton-in-Ribblesdale
« Reply #45 on: May 10, 2019, 08:21:30 am »
Sorry Jenny, I think we need proper clarity on your statement.

The Referendum asked this question;

Should BCA, on your behalf, campaign for The Countryside and Rights of Way Act to apply to going underground?

You stated that;

Quote from: Jenny P
… we concentrate now on changing the views of Defra, etc. and ensuring that conservation issues are properly taken care of

Clearly, the referendum embodied significantly more than that … so the question remains;

Are you stating that the mandate handed to the BCA by the result of the members referendum has been set aside, diminished or in some other way rejected?


Ian

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Online mikem

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Re: BCA AGM 2019 in Horton-in-Ribblesdale
« Reply #46 on: May 10, 2019, 08:36:30 am »
DEFRA are the ones who make the decision about whether we can or not...

Offline droid

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Re: BCA AGM 2019 in Horton-in-Ribblesdale
« Reply #47 on: May 10, 2019, 09:06:05 am »
No, I'm saying that BCA now has the mandate and doesn't need to revisit it. 

However, BCA still has to work on convincing Defra and the powers that be in government that their current stance, which equates to, "it's only legal if you don't go out of daylight ..." is rubbish.  That's a whole other argument BCA has to win, to change officialdom's mind, but we now have the backing of our members to do it and it's being worked on.

Seems pretty clear to me, Ian.
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Offline Ian Adams

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Re: BCA AGM 2019 in Horton-in-Ribblesdale
« Reply #48 on: May 10, 2019, 02:56:43 pm »
I would have preferred Jenny to simply clarify her statement. Seems we have to go down the route of mis-direction and obfuscation once again.

During the Referendum process, there were a number of BCA executives who actively fought against the proposal to campaign for CRoW to be applied. Furthermore, after the referendum, there were a number of BCA executives who actively sought to derail the result and some who simply put their hands under their arse and did nothing. As a result, we (the poor saps who go caving) suffered over two years of delays. Some people (like the CRoW liaison officer) frequently reported that he was being impeded.

In addition to all of that, there were a number of people outside of the executive who made very significant efforts to undermine and derail the referendum process by approaching other parties (including DEFRA) and pressing their own politics which were contrary to the BCA mandate. Some even went to the effort of creating a competing website.

We recently saw the resignation of the acting CRoW officer (Badlad) who had made very significant efforts (much more than just asking DEFRA to change their view) who cited the failure of the BCA executive (at least in part) to support the process/campaign.

More recently, there has been a fair bit of momentum to make some positive changes at the BCA (including the voting system)

We have already seen some “frustrations” within the various threads with regards to making progress and fingers have been pointed towards some of the “Old Guard”. It also seems to appear that (some of) the various candidates for the forthcoming elections are not only anti-CRoW but also anti-progress (one of whom actively fought against the referendum result). Fair enough per se.

It now appears that the wishes of the BCA referendum result are not being (properly) pursued. It further appears that (some of) the people putting themselves forward for the BCA committee are people whose interests are contrary to the CRoW mandate and contrary to the wishes of the majority of the members who voted.

The concern that BCA has diminished their mandate to pursue the members interests is not only Bona fide but, worryingly, it looks like it is about to fall under the remit of those (some) people who are entirely opposed to it. Indeed, it would be easy to suggest that the same people who have actively fought against it would now continue to do so with the power attached to being a BCA executive (whatever that actually means).

The question I asked is therefore entirely legitimate and also relevant to the forthcoming AGM. I would like it answered properly please.


Ian
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Offline BradW

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Re: BCA AGM 2019 in Horton-in-Ribblesdale
« Reply #49 on: May 10, 2019, 03:19:06 pm »
Is the BCA supposed to represent the interests of all cavers and not just those who belong to majority groups? Then if so, the best way to do this is for all interests to be present on council, and not just those who never disagree with anything.

 

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