Author Topic: CNCC Rigging Topos Insight  (Read 580 times)

Offline DaveTheCaver

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CNCC Rigging Topos Insight
« on: November 28, 2019, 10:15:20 pm »
Planning on a trip back to the Yorkshire Dales next year and trying to figure out what equipment to bring for our group. It's been 3 decades since I was there last: I expect things might have changed a bit.

I found the CNCC Rigging Topos and have a few questions:
1. Presumably the rope lengths are quoted in meters.
2. On the topo what is the difference between the black filled dots and the black dots with white center. Black dots = P-anchors, White = natural anchor or something else? For example Juniper Gulf.
3. Presumably the resin anchors need us to supply Karabiners or 7mm long maillons. Correct?
4. Do we need to bring hangers for 8mm spits.
Any other insight on rigging gear that we should bring?
Thanks
David

Offline langcliffe

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Re: CNCC Rigging Topos Insight
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2019, 10:51:46 pm »
Planning on a trip back to the Yorkshire Dales next year and trying to figure out what equipment to bring for our group. It's been 3 decades since I was there last: I expect things might have changed a bit.

I found the CNCC Rigging Topos and have a few questions:
1. Presumably the rope lengths are quoted in meters.
2. On the topo what is the difference between the black filled dots and the black dots with white center. Black dots = P-anchors, White = natural anchor or something else? For example Juniper Gulf.
3. Presumably the resin anchors need us to supply Karabiners or 7mm long maillons. Correct?
4. Do we need to bring hangers for 8mm spits.
Any other insight on rigging gear that we should bring?

1. The lengths are in metres
2. Black dots P-hangers; white dots naturals - could be a thread (possibly drilled) or a flake, spike etc.
3. Karabiners or maillons for P-hangers (except for the first which can be tied in directly).
4. Bring your own hangers for spits.

In some cases there have been minor modifications made to the fixed aids since the topos were published, so don't take them too literally, and be prepared with a few extra karabiners and slings. I tend to use Northern Caves for a summary of the equipment required for the Three Counties area.

Offline andrewmc

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Re: CNCC Rigging Topos Insight
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2019, 12:15:34 am »
Also I think there is a (fairly silly) policy that only CNCC resin anchors get drawn (which can be incredibly confusing if there are other non-CNCC resin anchors mixed in, and is also thorough unhelpful if other anchors are needed for continuations e.g. the stuff in Easegill through trips). Consequently if there is a topo I assume no spits will be involved.

Offline langcliffe

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Re: CNCC Rigging Topos Insight
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2019, 08:35:25 am »
Also I think there is a (fairly silly) policy that only CNCC resin anchors get drawn (which can be incredibly confusing if there are other non-CNCC resin anchors mixed in, and is also thorough unhelpful if other anchors are needed for continuations e.g. the stuff in Easegill through trips). Consequently if there is a topo I assume no spits will be involved.

That's very true about spits not being on CNCC topos. And as you say, some perfectly adequately non-CNCC P-hangered routes are not included in the CNCC topos (e.g. Ease Gill Aven and BUSS Route).  I can understand the reasoning behind that decision, but feel that it is perhaps a little too dogmatic. Also, it is worth remembering that a number of CNCC P-hangered routes are also not included - including ones relating to routes in GG, Notts Pot, Lost Johns', and Lancaster Hole. It does mean that one tends to reach for  the latest edition of Northern Caves when relevant.

Offline Alex

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Re: CNCC Rigging Topos Insight
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2019, 02:35:08 pm »
I must admit when I did Jockey hole recently all the other resin anchors confused me somewhat. Should I be using them? In the end I just ignored most of them, where they were not needed as I could not see the point for example of all the ones half way down and the extra ones at the end of the traverse  the pitch as it was free hanging when I used deviation. I would be helpful for them to include other non-CNCC resin anchors on the topo as dots, at least so you know to avoid them or at least to expect them.

To be fair though nowerdays as long as I know how many krabs, slings and rope length for given pitch then I just play dot to dot and rarely refer to the topo anyway.
Anything I say is represents my own opinion and not that of a any club/organisation that I am a member of (unless its good of course)

Offline langcliffe

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Re: CNCC Rigging Topos Insight
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2019, 03:51:32 pm »
It does get confusing. We went down the Devious route in Cow Pot recently which was equipped with P-hangers. Are they CNCC hangers? They don't appear on the topo. If it hadn't been for the reassuring tackle requirements list in Northern Caves, we wouldn't have known that it had been P-hangered.

Again, Link Pot, in particular Serendipity and Ohce Pot, is equipped with P-hangers - are they CNCC-installed?  I suspect that they are, although as there is no corresponding CNCC rigging guide, one cannot make the assumption.

Offline Pete K

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Re: CNCC Rigging Topos Insight
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2019, 04:30:15 pm »
I suspect, much like the DCA, the CNCC rigging guides are there to show the locations of the BCA approved and installed / insured resin anchors, not every type of anchor that might be on that pitch. In Derbyshire, the Crewe CPC publish a rigging guide with all the different anchors marked on, but the DCA free rigging topos generally only show the anchors DCA has installed as part of the BCA scheme. As much as it would be nice, DCA does not consider itself responsible for publishing all the locations of every anchor as we might then be looked at as endorsing the other anchors for which we have no idea of provenance. We publish topos with DCA installed BCA anchors and leave it to cavers to publish anything else.
I'm sure the CNCC would welcome volunteers to draw up topos of sites with CNCC anchors that have not been done yet, just get in touch with them. As for topos showing every possible anchor on a pitch, be like the Crewe CPC and draw one up and publish it yourself if nothing exists. The CPCC rigging guides probably generate a nice little trickle income for that club.

If you are not sure whether an anchor is a BCA type installed/tested one, get someone to show you what a DMM Eco (P) anchor, BP anchor or IC anchor looks like if you can't find it online. There will be almost none of those types of anchor in UK caves that were not done by an approved BCA installer. Some have ID numbers etched or stamped on them. Whatever anchor you are faced with, regardless of whether it is a BCA type or an unknown, it is more important to have the knowledge of how to pre-use inspect an anchor than knowing exactly who installed it anyway. Even an approved anchor can deteriorate and become unsafe to use over time, so understanding what you are looking at/for is a pretty important caver skill IMO.

Pete K
DCA approved anchor installer

Offline langcliffe

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Re: CNCC Rigging Topos Insight
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2019, 05:33:45 pm »
I suspect, much like the DCA, the CNCC rigging guides are there to show the locations of the BCA approved and installed / insured resin anchors, not every type of anchor that might be on that pitch.

Agreed - but we know that the CNCC rigging guides show a subset of the locations of the BCA approved and installed / insured resin anchors. I know of one route, installed about 14 years ago, that is not on the rigging guides.

Offline JoshW

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Re: CNCC Rigging Topos Insight
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2019, 12:13:18 am »
I suspect, much like the DCA, the CNCC rigging guides are there to show the locations of the BCA approved and installed / insured resin anchors, not every type of anchor that might be on that pitch.

Agreed - but we know that the CNCC rigging guides show a subset of the locations of the BCA approved and installed / insured resin anchors. I know of one route, installed about 14 years ago, that is not on the rigging guides.

Are you gonna share your wisdom or just keep shtum  :shrug:

Offline langcliffe

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Re: CNCC Rigging Topos Insight
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2019, 07:37:40 am »
I suspect, much like the DCA, the CNCC rigging guides are there to show the locations of the BCA approved and installed / insured resin anchors, not every type of anchor that might be on that pitch.

Agreed - but we know that the CNCC rigging guides show a subset of the locations of the BCA approved and installed / insured resin anchors. I know of one route, installed about 14 years ago, that is not on the rigging guides.

Are you gonna share your wisdom or just keep shtum  :shrug:

Unfortunately, JoshW, wisdom is something I am in short supply of, and really cannot spare what I have. But if you were wondering to which route I was referring above, it was Bar Pot Alternative, details of which have been shared here. When Mike Wooding and I opened up Small Mammal Pot in 2005, we bolted it, the short pitch above Whitehall, and South East Aven. The Small Mammal Pot topo was added to the CNCC Bar Pot / Flood Exit topo, but the rest was not.

We also P-hangered Echo Aven into Far Country shortly after, shared here.

The work was, of course, reported to the CNCC at the time, and a comment sent when the new Bar Pot topo was published.

Offline Ian Ball

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Re: CNCC Rigging Topos Insight
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2019, 08:59:40 am »
Bar Pot Alternative is a great trip.

Offline Badlad

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Re: CNCC Rigging Topos Insight
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2019, 09:16:39 am »
I have a vague memory that there are well over 2000 BCA approved anchors installed in Dales caves.  Many by the original Technical group and more recently by the IC anchor group.  Not all the approved installers have worked cohesively over those years and other cavers have installed different anchor types for many different reasons.  I doubt anyone has a complete record of which anchors are where in what cave.  A trip down Long Kin West will demonstrate just how many anchor types there can be - some installed well and others not so.  In addition some of the early BCA anchors now need replacing.  It is a hell of a job for any group to keep on top of.  Having the topos we do have is a major resource for cavers.  I'm sure CNCC would love to improve on it but are lacking in volunteers.  Anyone offering should get in touch with the CNCC secretary who will be happy to put you in touch with the right people.  A huge amount of info on fixed aids can be found on the CNCC website https://cncc.org.uk/fixed-aids/