• Black Sheep Diggers presentation - March 29th 7pm

    In the Crown Hotel Middlesmoor the Black Sheep Diggers are going to provide an evening presentation to locals and other cavers.

    We will be highlighting with slides and explanations the explorations we have been doing over the years and that of cave divers plus research of the fascinating world of nearby lead mines.

    Click here for more details

Non-MR maillons

andrewmcleod

andrewmcleod

Well-known member
So here are my early disclaimers:

1) everyone should of course be using PPE maillons. I'm sure nobody would ever even consider using non-PPE maillons even if they were fully aware that the only difference is (probably) that they have a different label and have individual instructions.
2) I cannot recommend anyone uses anything other than genuine Peguet Maillon Rapide maillons.
3) You definitely shouldn't use anything linked in this post, and nothing that follows is in any way a recommendation (so don't blame me if some cheap quick-link falls apart on you and you die).

So, with that out of the way, a bit of a comparison of the two most common sizes of genuine Peguet Maillon Rapide (chosen so that you can get an 11mm rope into the maillon).
Note: BL = 'breaking load'

Maillon Rapide PPE 7mm large-opening zinc-plated: 60g, 16mm opening, 25kN BL
Maillon Rapide PPE 8mm zinc-plated: 77g, 11mm opening, 35kN BL
Maillon Rapide PPE 7mm large-opening stainless: 62g, 16mm opening, 40kN BL
Maillon Rapide PPE 8mm stainless: 79g, 11mm opening, 55kN BL

These are lovely, but horribly pricey these days (particularly in the stainless category).

By comparison (and lazily converting 100kg = 1kN for the long-opening ones), from 'Galvanised Specialists Ltd' (a UK company that appears to actually make stuff as far as I can tell):

Stainless Steel Quick Repair Chain Links | Steel Maillon | GS Products

Our stainless steel quick repair chain links are marine grade. From 3.5mm to 12mm diameter, they quickly and securely join chains together and also known as maillon rapide quick link
www.gsproducts.co.uk www.gsproducts.co.uk
10mm stainless: 12mm opening, 31.4kN BL

Stainless Steel Long Quick Repair Chain Links 3.5mm-12mm | GS Products

Our quick repair, stainless steel, long chain links quickly join chains with a secure locking nut. In a range of diameters from 3.5mm - 12mm.
www.gsproducts.co.uk www.gsproducts.co.uk
8mm stainless long opening: 17mm opening, 20kN BL
10mm stainless long opening: 20mm opening, 31kN BL

Note: 8mm normal opening on these is only 9.5mm which is not enough hence you have to go to 10mm
20kN on the 8mm stainless long opening is the minimum permitted for carabiners AFAIK so it should be strong enough but the 10mm options exist?

The major point of significance is the price:
10mm stainless: £4.79 each (~£4.67 if you buy a 25 pack)
8mm stainless long: £3.59 each
That's a bit more expensive than non-stainless (and presumably a bit heavier although I don't have weights), but a shedload cheaper than stainless Maillon Rapides (the cheapest I've found 8mm stainless maillons is about £12+) so they might be good for fixed rigging _if_ they are not terribly likely to explode. They are also not individually marked up.

Has anyone used anything similar (non-Peguet maillons) for rigging etc.? Anyone in a position to test a few?
 
andrewmcleod said:
So here are my early disclaimers:

1) everyone should of course be using PPE maillons. I'm sure nobody would ever even consider using non-PPE maillons even if they were fully aware that the only difference is (probably) that they have a different label and have individual instructions.
2) I cannot recommend anyone uses anything other than genuine Peguet Maillon Rapide maillons.
3) You definitely shouldn't use anything linked in this post, and nothing that follows is in any way a recommendation (so don't blame me if some cheap quick-link falls apart on you and you die).

So, with that out of the way, a bit of a comparison of the two most common sizes of genuine Peguet Maillon Rapide (chosen so that you can get an 11mm rope into the maillon).
Note: BL = 'breaking load'

Maillon Rapide PPE 7mm large-opening zinc-plated: 60g, 16mm opening, 25kN BL
Maillon Rapide PPE 8mm zinc-plated: 77g, 11mm opening, 35kN BL
Maillon Rapide PPE 7mm large-opening stainless: 62g, 16mm opening, 40kN BL
Maillon Rapide PPE 8mm stainless: 79g, 11mm opening, 55kN BL

These are lovely, but horribly pricey these days (particularly in the stainless category).

By comparison (and lazily converting 100kg = 1kN for the long-opening ones), from 'Galvanised Specialists Ltd' (a UK company that appears to actually make stuff as far as I can tell):

Stainless Steel Quick Repair Chain Links | Steel Maillon | GS Products

Our stainless steel quick repair chain links are marine grade. From 3.5mm to 12mm diameter, they quickly and securely join chains together and also known as maillon rapide quick link
www.gsproducts.co.uk www.gsproducts.co.uk
10mm stainless: 12mm opening, 31.4kN BL

Stainless Steel Long Quick Repair Chain Links 3.5mm-12mm | GS Products

Our quick repair, stainless steel, long chain links quickly join chains with a secure locking nut. In a range of diameters from 3.5mm - 12mm.
www.gsproducts.co.uk www.gsproducts.co.uk
8mm stainless long opening: 17mm opening, 20kN BL
10mm stainless long opening: 20mm opening, 31kN BL

Note: 8mm normal opening on these is only 9.5mm which is not enough hence you have to go to 10mm
20kN on the 8mm stainless long opening is the minimum permitted for carabiners AFAIK so it should be strong enough but the 10mm options exist?

The major point of significance is the price:
10mm stainless: £4.79 each (~£4.67 if you buy a 25 pack)
8mm stainless long: £3.59 each
That's a bit more expensive than non-stainless (and presumably a bit heavier although I don't have weights), but a shedload cheaper than stainless Maillon Rapides (the cheapest I've found 8mm stainless maillons is about £12+) so they might be good for fixed rigging _if_ they are not terribly likely to explode. They are also not individually marked up.

Has anyone used anything similar (non-Peguet maillons) for rigging etc.? Anyone in a position to test a few?
Click to expand...
I bought a bunch of about 20 of the 8mm stainless non-maillons from GS. I’ve got no complaints and am still alive.
 
I have some that we used to repair swing chains in the local play areas which get used for a variety of things besides caving.
Can’t remember the supplier but they were sold as “rapid links” and had a small hole for a roll pin to lock them off.
Apart from the odd industrious individual coming tooled up and nicking them we never had any issues with them failing and they got a fair bit of abuse.
 
I recovered cheap, nasty unbranded stainless "quick links" from above many years ago, when we were removed some floating skimmers from the water treatment plant at a paper mill. They don't even have a rating of any sort stamped on.

They've ended up in various places, including the chain at the bottom of Blue Pencil Passage, as the previous (genuine?) Maillon Rapide had worn most of the way through. Last time I checked, it hadn't been replaced and was still in perfect condition after more than 10 years, I think. I'll have another look next time I pass.

The threads aren't great and often want a spanner, but I'm pretty confident that an 8mm steel link (however crap) isn't likely to be the point of failure in any plausible situation.
 
Both companies have been around for 80+ years, manufacturing for much heavier duty uses than dangling a person. The difference is the cost of PPE testing and not buying the peguet ones direct (although they are presumably also designed for more regular opening, rather than just fitting and leaving)
 
andrewmcleod said:
20kN ... is the minimum permitted for carabiners AFAIK
Click to expand...
18 for oval
25 for quicklinks

>> https://www.theuiaa.org/documents/safety-standards/Pictorial_UIAA121 Connectors.pdf

Of course 18, 20 or 25 are all likely to be fine really.

For me the main issue with non-rated industrial fasteners is whether the quality control is good. Perhaps buy a few and inspect / feel them. What does the physical quality tell you. Are they sharp, does the gate bind, is the finish crap etc

Also worth remembering that people used and adapted industrial stuff like spits, Peguet maillons, resin, even karabiners and pitons, nuts. All before the standards caught up to codify what people were experimenting with.

On the other hand, if there is a high quality french-made branded maillon for sale in your local caving shop, is this just a case of being tight-fisted? And, following this line of thinking, based on your '20kN and 11mm opening' idea, have you considered buying a 5mm long-opening stainless maillon? £7.90 and only 26 grams.

>> https://www.peguet.com/self-certified-maillon-rapide-quick-links/large-opening-maillon-rapide[/URL]
>> https://www.inglesport.com/product/pegueut-maillon-rapide-long-opening-oval/[/URL]

(None of which answers your questions. Sorry.)
 
So, according to the second site mentioned just above by Ian, a '7 mm Peguet Maillon Rapide Long Opening Stainless Steel' comes in at
£14–20p; I think I'll stick to karabiners.
 
JoshW said:
20 connectors for less than 80 quid and people still hunting around to save pennies, surely not..
Click to expand...
We buy them in hundreds for an exped, and a lot will get left as fixed rigging. Currently this is done with non-stainless as stainless is horribly unaffordable (can get 7mm for just over £3 now abroad; 7mm stainless is four times that).
Which is better - a non-stainless 7mm long opening Peguet maillon, or a cheap stainless quick-link? Tricky.
There have been concerns about rust stains in ropes left on maillons for a long time (you can definitely see the stains on our ropes when they are derigged).
I also have a use for around 12 8mm stainless maillons for fixed rigging with chains and rings in a UK cave (at a couple of locations); at about £12 each the maillons end up being the most expensive part of the rigging, and while hopefully the BCA will pay (via the regional council) I don't want to be spending member money on something unnecessary, if the cheaper alternative is entirely safe enough.
 
For joining chains you can definitely use the GS maillons, it's what they are designed for, unless it's against BCA policy.

I'd only insist on stainless for an up pitch that was being left rigged.

Presumably some of the staining is near end of rope, so you can cut off a short section to confirm whether it is only on surface? I'd worry more if it runs right through centre...
 
Short of putting them on a test rig you're not going to break the British ones whatever you do. Question is, how are the Greeks producing them so cheaply? Even when imported to USA and Canada they aren't as pricey as French!
 
Not PPE and strength rated in pounds not kN, if you want: Stainless (316) but not necessarily CE certified, you can sometimes get reasonable prices on "quick links" (maillons) made by US Stainless.
 
mikem said:
... you're not going to break the British ones whatever you do.
Click to expand...
Probably. But do they all make the MBL? What fraction fail lower, and how much lower? What's the quality control like for these items, what does the manufacter guarantee for them? Are they intended for PPE or lifting equipment or a narrowboat mooring etc etc. Are they ISO9001? Yes they are British but it is possible that in producing them for £3.50 (!) not all items have been carefully inspected.

mikem said:
Question is, how are the Greeks producing them so cheaply?
Click to expand...
Yet you don't ask the same question of the British ones you are so sure of.

Probably this isn't going to kill anyone. George has used them and seems satisfied. Andrew can contact the company, buy some and test them. I'm just putting out the counter point that its worth being cautious when saving money, to consider which corners have been cut.
 
I already explained above why UK are cheaper, however, the Greek ones have had to cover PPE requirements as well (although they do have a minimum wage of only c.£30 per day)

I expect they can tell us if we ask (all 3 makes will be more than strong enough):

Testing Facilities

GS Products has over 80 years of experience supplying steel chain, wire rope and marine fittings; including eye bolts, hooks, shackles and rings UK STOCK
www.gsproducts.co.uk www.gsproducts.co.uk
 
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