Author Topic: BCA secretary gives notice of standing down  (Read 8427 times)

Offline Mark Wright

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Re: BCA secretary gives notice of standing down
« Reply #25 on: April 07, 2020, 11:29:21 am »

Is this a realistic option; can we forgo a national body and "devolve" the powers to regional councils? How would this sit with insurance for example?

Personally I couldn't care less about the rod in the back that is the BCA Insurance scheme.

Would people suddenly stop caving if there was no BCA Insurance scheme?

I think not.

Mark

Offline BradW

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Re: BCA secretary gives notice of standing down
« Reply #26 on: April 07, 2020, 11:52:13 am »
Think of the CSCC as a minority opposition party. If the parliamentary opposition put forward legislation and amendments in the proper manner, you  don't see the Prime Minister resigning, the proposals just get voted down. I think a sense of proportion is needed here. Calm down and get a grip.

Offline Ed

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Re: BCA secretary gives notice of standing down
« Reply #27 on: April 07, 2020, 12:15:43 pm »

Is this a realistic option; can we forgo a national body and "devolve" the powers to regional councils? How would this sit with insurance for example?

Personally I couldn't care less about the rod in the back that is the BCA Insurance scheme.

Would people suddenly stop caving if there was no BCA Insurance scheme?

I think not.

Mark

suspect a fair few people might consider not renewing their BCA membership following yet more moves to thwart the members wishes

Offline darren

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Re: BCA secretary gives notice of standing down
« Reply #28 on: April 07, 2020, 12:21:05 pm »
Let's not get too carried away here..

Most members have been forced to join by their clubs. Something to do with insurance I believe.  Most members don't really want to be members and  don't care about all this.

I can't remember how many voted in the last online ballot 20% rings a bell, but I'm sure someone will correct me.

A small vocal minority do care, and we will hear a lot from them.
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Offline MJenkinson

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Re: BCA secretary gives notice of standing down
« Reply #29 on: April 07, 2020, 12:23:29 pm »
Agreed with both points, but just pointing out that several permits in the North require BCA membership. Would this stop people, or me caving, well that depends on a few things.

Offline Pegasus

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Re: BCA secretary gives notice of standing down
« Reply #30 on: April 07, 2020, 12:39:56 pm »
I think a sense of proportion is needed here. Calm down and get a grip.

The same might be said of those who have caused Matt to leave.

Offline Mark Wright

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Re: BCA secretary gives notice of standing down
« Reply #31 on: April 07, 2020, 12:41:00 pm »
The way things currently stand, I definitely won't be renewing my membership next year and will be encouraging my club to do likewise as I don't really want to have to resign from my club.

As for the problems a lack of BCA insurance may have on permits, these will just have to be renegotiated. There are plenty of willing and able volunteers who I'm sure will get this potential issue effectively sorted if required.

Mark

Offline BradW

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Re: BCA secretary gives notice of standing down
« Reply #32 on: April 07, 2020, 12:48:17 pm »
I think a sense of proportion is needed here. Calm down and get a grip.

The same might be said of those who have caused Matt to leave.
We can only read one side of the disagreement here, so we can only make a judgment based on partial evidence, and for me it all seems a bit of a hysterical reaction to some disagreeable noise which should be dealt with in the normal democratic way and not plastered over the internet.

Offline alastairgott

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Re: BCA secretary gives notice of standing down
« Reply #33 on: April 07, 2020, 12:52:16 pm »
I’m sure there’s a solution to this which is constitutional. I will post something around 6 tonight.

Offline tony from suffolk

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Re: BCA secretary gives notice of standing down
« Reply #34 on: April 07, 2020, 12:57:20 pm »
Think of the CSCC as a minority opposition party. If the parliamentary opposition put forward legislation and amendments in the proper manner, you  don't see the Prime Minister resigning, the proposals just get voted down. I think a sense of proportion is needed here. Calm down and get a grip.
...not forgetting that MPs get paid for their aggravation.
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Offline Mark Wright

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Re: BCA secretary gives notice of standing down
« Reply #35 on: April 07, 2020, 01:02:23 pm »
We can only read one side of the disagreement here, so we can only make a judgment based on partial evidence.

We can read the other side of the disagreement here if you post it.

Mark

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: BCA secretary gives notice of standing down
« Reply #36 on: April 07, 2020, 01:02:47 pm »
Think of the CSCC as a minority opposition party. If the parliamentary opposition put forward legislation and amendments in the proper manner, you  don't see the Prime Minister resigning, the proposals just get voted down.

I think this is a fair comment, as a general point - but the rotten news at the start of this topic has left me dismayed.

There are some very experienced cavers associated with the CSCC and they must genuinely believe what they're wanting to do is for the best. I don't understand those reasons and I'm really saddened to  learn that several good people, who have devoted so much time and energy to a cause they deeply believe in, should feel the way they do.

But the CSCC is only one of many constituent bodies. What we really need here is for more BCA members to play their part in the democratic process, so that we have the BCA that most closely matches the wishes of the majority. Perhaps we've all been guilty of not taking enough interest?

At the end of the day we're all cavers and we all have so much in common. We should be civil to each other, despite the tensions and frustrations that go with suddenly not being able to pursue the pastime we love so much. We're much stronger together.

Matt, Jane, Gary - what can I say? How about a massive thank you to each of you for the commitment and drive you've shown.

Offline DavidGibson

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Re: BCA secretary gives notice of standing down
« Reply #37 on: April 07, 2020, 01:04:58 pm »
The question of "insurance" has always been a bit of a millstone around the neck of BCA. It might be worth recalling how it came about. Before BCA was created, "insurance" was provided by BCRA, via a small levy on club membership (if I remember correctly). This was sufficient income to provide insurance to landowners - to whom BCRA issued "landowner certificates", which meant that they were agreeable to let cavers onto their land.

That practice had to end when the insurance cost rocketed - I think the increase was well in excess of ten times. BCRA did not have enough members to fund it, and it became necessary to find a method of widening the membership. At the same time there was an emerging desire to have a national body that was representative of all cavers. What emerged from the discussions between BCRA and NCA was the need for a new body - BCA - and a means of collecting a fee from all the members of the member clubs. That was the only way to raise sufficient money to pay the insurance premium, and it was the need for insurance that brought about the existence of BCA.

Th salient point is that the insurance premium was not, primarily, to provide individual insurance, it was to provide landowner insurance. It has been "sold" to members ever since on the basis of "you need insurance" but the reality is that it is, to a notable extent, the landowners who need to see the so-called "landowner certificate" in order to be happy about allowing (any) cavers on their land.

That's the background. E&OE: it was a long time ago.
BCRA Secretary from 1/1/2010.

Offline darren

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Re: BCA secretary gives notice of standing down
« Reply #38 on: April 07, 2020, 01:12:40 pm »
Just like American Civil War.

Majority want to go one way, minority another.

Both parties could be making sensible choices due to local circumstances.

Doesn't help when the majority want to steamroller the minority regardless of local sensibilities.

So here we are civial war.
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Offline Oceanrower

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Re: BCA secretary gives notice of standing down
« Reply #39 on: April 07, 2020, 01:33:57 pm »
As far as insurance goes, why is it actually needed anyway? I'm not a member of the BMC but AFAIAA the ONLY place that asks for insurance is the South side if Cheddar Gorge. A strongly caving area. (And, noticeably, within the remit of the CSCC!).

Nowhere else seems to need it.

Offline Brains

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Re: BCA secretary gives notice of standing down
« Reply #40 on: April 07, 2020, 01:35:43 pm »
This is a very complex situation and throwing mud about (in my view a very apt metaphor) doesn't help. I think anybody posting should have attended meetings both of BCA and CSCC before they make comments
Perhaps those that havent attended CNCC meetings, or DCA, or anything else shouldnt comment?  ;D
This is clearly a case of sour grapes and revenge proposals from the the CSCC, from what I have seen they care more about politics than caving  :doubt:
Rather than Matt Gary and Jane resigning, perhaps the CSCC should resign from BCA and go it alone as they so obviously want. Then they can gate, lock and concrete their local caves for their own local people?

Offline BradW

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Re: BCA secretary gives notice of standing down
« Reply #41 on: April 07, 2020, 01:53:35 pm »
We can only read one side of the disagreement here, so we can only make a judgment based on partial evidence.

We can read the other side of the disagreement here if you post it.

Mark
How true. Sadly I am as much in the  dark as the rest of us. Mrodoc may know something perhaps.

Offline mikem

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Re: BCA secretary gives notice of standing down
« Reply #42 on: April 07, 2020, 02:06:07 pm »
I think you'll find they care more about caving than they do the BCA...

Cheddar Gorge also required the setting up of a local rescue team before they allowed climbing (& the recently deceased Marquess of Bath became their patron).

BMC have produced an occupiers' liability booklet, that doesn't even mention insurance:
https://www.thebmc.co.uk/Handlers/DownloadHandler.ashx?id=944

Offline Brains

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Re: BCA secretary gives notice of standing down
« Reply #43 on: April 07, 2020, 02:21:45 pm »
I think you'll find they care more about caving than they do the BCA.
CSCC dont care for caving unless on their terms and fuck the rest of the country.
An empire of locked caves and a throne built from keys, padded with permits on a plinth of concrete.
If they cared for caving they would work with BCA, not against it

Offline Ed

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Re: BCA secretary gives notice of standing down
« Reply #44 on: April 07, 2020, 02:30:47 pm »
May be no regional council or club there of should be an access controlling body.

That way conflict of interests are avoid and regional councils can work on behalf of their members only

Offline mikem

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Re: BCA secretary gives notice of standing down
« Reply #45 on: April 07, 2020, 02:35:14 pm »
So who should manage access? - BCA have specifically stepped away from it in past.

It's actually mostly the landowners who insisted on caves being locked - after instances such as the scout falling 50ft down Coral Cave, because it's next to a footpath - many others are in their fields, with livestock. This hasn't always been managed in the best possible way & some cavers have got carried away with it, but it does mean the access situation is very different in Mendip to the Dales.

Offline DavidGibson

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Re: BCA secretary gives notice of standing down
« Reply #46 on: April 07, 2020, 02:35:34 pm »
BMC have produced an occupiers' liability booklet, that doesn't even mention insurance:
https://www.thebmc.co.uk/Handlers/DownloadHandler.ashx?id=944
That's interesting; but the reason it doesnt mention insurance might be because it explains only the occupier's duty
of care towards the visitor. It does not cover the opposite situation, where the damage is suffered by the occupier. An example would be a caver damaging a fence so that some livestock fell down an open shaft. That's what the insurance is for - (or, originally, anyway). That is: the insurance is not in case the caver sues the landowner (for "letting" him get himself injured in a cave), it is so the landowner doesnt have to go to the bother of suing the caver for the loss of his cow. (Or, at least, that is my understanding :-)
BCRA Secretary from 1/1/2010.

Offline ali_mac

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Re: BCA secretary gives notice of standing down
« Reply #47 on: April 07, 2020, 02:59:58 pm »
So who should manage access? - BCA have specifically stepped away from it in past.

It's actually mostly the landowners who insisted on caves being locked - after instances such as the scout falling 50ft down Coral Cave, because it's next to a footpath - many others are in their fields, with livestock. This hasn't always been managed in the best possible way & some cavers have got carried away with it, but it does mean the access situation is very different in Mendip to the Dales.

Doesn't seem all that different to me - plenty of caves around the UK are on land near footpaths or land with livestock.
The locks and keys down south seem to me to be pointless empire creation. 
Where a degree of "security" is required, what is so very wrong with a Derbyshire key?

I'm a southern caver by the way.

Offline mikem

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Re: BCA secretary gives notice of standing down
« Reply #48 on: April 07, 2020, 03:11:06 pm »
Hi Ali,

The difference is it was originally driven by the landowners, not the cavers - they wanted to only have to deal with one entity, rather than all the separate groups.

Online JoshW

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Re: BCA secretary gives notice of standing down
« Reply #49 on: April 07, 2020, 03:12:35 pm »
I'm really intrigued as to what the 14 proposals are? have I missed these somewhere?

What are the 5 new positions and 2 new standing committees they're proposing? Whilst it's highly likely they are excessive, it would be good to be able to make that judgement myself.

Is there anything stopping the BCA publishing these proposals?

 

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