Author Topic: Formation of CSCC  (Read 715 times)

Online Badlad

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Formation of CSCC
« on: April 12, 2020, 09:01:03 am »
In the latest edition of Descent magazine there is a article which gives a little background on the early formation of the CNCC.  In caving politics CSCC is topical at the moment and an article on its formation from 1965 makes interesting reading. 


Offline alastairgott

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Re: Formation of CSCC
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2020, 09:32:03 am »
Sorry Badlad, whats the source of the above page. (book name, year, author, etc.)

For all we know, it could be the Dankness of yesteryear, where all satire had to be written down.  :lol:

Offline andrewmc

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Re: Formation of CSCC
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2020, 09:43:11 am »
I like that every club had the right of veto - presumably that isn't in the current CSCC constitution!

Offline aricooperdavis

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Re: Formation of CSCC
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2020, 09:47:33 am »
I suspect that most members of Exeter University Speleological Society probably still feel the same way: "We would not like the C.S.C.C. to have any power over access, and so on."!

Offline aricooperdavis

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Re: Formation of CSCC
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2020, 09:54:32 am »
presumably that isn't in the current CSCC constitution!

If we trust the one on their website then it is!

The Constitution of the Council of Southern Caving Clubs
  • The name shall be ‘The Council of Southern Caving Clubs’.
  • The objects shall be:
    a. To encourage the exchange of information between caving clubs in the South of England.
    b. The safeguarding of the interests of those clubs and individual cavers.
    c. Maintaining friendly relations with similar bodies with a view to promoting and achieving objects of mutual interest.
  • Guiding principles shall be:
    a. Respect for the autonomy and independence of action of all caving clubs. ‘Live and let live’.
    b. The owners and tenants of property containing cave have the right to grant or withhold access. In certain cases caving clubs, singly or jointly, have the control of cave access delegated to them by owners. In such cases access for cavers should be granted as freely as possible throughout the country within the terms of those agreements. When forced to make new agreements the appropriate body should ensure this freedom.
  • a. The Council shall consist of the delegates from member clubs. It shall meet not less than once a year to transact business.
    b. An ordinary meeting of the Council shall be called by the Honorary Secretary or when ordered by a previous Council meeting.
    c. The Annual General Meeting shall be called for May [sic]. An Extraordinary General Meeting may be called at the request of at least six member clubs. A quorum for the Annual General Meeting and the Extraordinary General Meeting shall be twenty five percent of the paid up member clubs of the Council or 8 members whichever is the lower.
  • A club becomes a member club by signifying to the Council its wish to do so and paying the appropriate subscription for the membership sought. Membership shall be conditional on acceptance by the Council.
  • a. The Officers shall be a Chairman, Honorary Secretary, Treasurer, and such others as the Council shall decide.
    b. Officers shall be elected by Council to serve for a year and shall be eligible for re-election.
  • An Ordinary Meeting of the Council shall consist of the Council Officers and the nominee of each club wishing to serve. It shall regulate its own business.
  • At all meetings each paid up club shall have one vote and the right to veto. An Ordinary Council Meeting can not approve changes to the Constitution.
  • The annual subscription shall be determined at the Annual General Meeting. The Council’s financial and subscription year shall start on the 1st January.
  • In the event of a dissolution, the assets of the Council shall be given to other organisations of a similar nature. A motion for dissolution, if passed by a two thirds majority at a Council Meeting shall not be subject to veto.
  • Motions for amendment to the Constitution must be received by the Secretary at least six weeks before the meeting, and be circulated to member clubs at least four weeks before the meeting with the agenda.

Offline Cavematt

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Re: Formation of CSCC
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2020, 10:54:24 am »
The very reluctance of the CSCC to the formation of a national body seems to tie in to their reluctance, more than 50 years on, to see the current National Body change to reflect the caving community in the UK as it is today. It seems the CSCC, since the start, and rightly or wrongly, have existed to try to block things from changing.

I would be interested to know how engaged CSCC's member clubs (http://cscc.org.uk/wiki/doku.php?id=about:member_clubs) feel with the decisions that CSCC make today. At the BCA AGM last year, the CSCC rep made it plain and clear, in defence of the group vote, that club members in their region didn't want anything to do with such matters and would rather the clubs and regional council dealt with National Body matters for them.

My own Regional Council, the CNCC, has made it a mission to see more members (and non members, clubs and individuals alike) feel engaged in the decisions taken, and involve more people than ever before in making them. It has been a long road, but the net result has been an increased attendance at meetings (meetings that most people seem to enjoy) and greater discussions between clubs and their members on key matters. The CNCC has taken some pretty difficult, and brave decisions in the last few years, such as withdrawing from over-restrictive access agreements, which could never have been taken without the knowledge of strong support from the northern caving community which we would not have had several years ago.

The DCA also seems to have done a great job in recent years in terms of being a progressive and proactive regional council, and I have not yet met a single Derbyshire caver with a bad word to say about them.

I note that the last CSCC General Meeting for which minutes are available on their website had eight people present representing seven clubs (technically not quorate according to their constitution, although that only says AGM/EGM... a normal General Meeting doesn't seem to be covered). Three of those individuals are highly active on BCA Council. Are these eight people really doing what the CSCC's 42 member clubs would want them to? If indeed the CSCC was set up to oppose a National Body, then I guess they have stayed true to this today by opposing all changes to that National Body.

How do CSCC engage with these 42 members other than a periodic meeting in the back room of the Hunters? Does the CSCC have a newsletter (I assume so but couldn't find on their website, and the last news posted on their website was 2018)? They have a forum but that seems to be mainly to post announcements and has been used very little recently. Do their members get regular email updates or requests for feedback? Or have their members just told CSCC to get on with things and don't ask them? Are their members happy with the decisions being made? Or is it just that nobody really cares anymore (which is a risk because it leaves the CSCC open to be used to push personal agendas).

As a northern caver this is none of my business, but I simply want to understand whether it is an entire region of cavers that is currently pushing back against the BCA (in which case their voice deserves the upmost of respect) or just a handful of individuals proclaiming to represent an entire region.

All of the above aside, my take home message at the end of the CNCC Descent article was a serious one; Get more involved in your regional councils to ensure they better reflect you, your club and your region and to help them improve caving regionally and nationally. Our Regional Councils are critical assets in British Caving because they serve not only as regional voices and negotiating bodies, but also as conduits through which BCA funding for conservation, access and other key work can be delivered and such work implemented. Be involved with your Regional Council!
York Caving Club

Online Badlad

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Re: Formation of CSCC
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2020, 11:31:16 am »
Sorry Badlad, whats the source of the above page. (book name, year, author, etc.)


The Speleologist, Vol 1, number 2 - 1965.  This was the magazine of the BSA I believe.  The author was Bruce Bedford who later started up Descent magazine and ran it for decades.

Offline badger

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Re: Formation of CSCC
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2020, 05:20:18 pm »
Not all CSCC clubs would agree with decisions the CSCC make, However CSCC would probably not know as CSCC clubs do not get involved at meetings, So any club that disagree's with the CSCC have got look at themselves

Offline nearlywhite

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Re: Formation of CSCC
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2020, 05:47:22 pm »
Not all CSCC clubs would agree with decisions the CSCC make, However CSCC would probably not know as CSCC clubs do not get involved at meetings, So any club that disagree's with the CSCC have got look at themselves

Ironically the same argument used by the CSCC about turnout to various BCA votes where they disagreed with the outcome

 

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