Author Topic: Grid ref for Hollandtwine shaft  (Read 1397 times)

Offline T pot 2

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Grid ref for Hollandtwine shaft
« on: July 31, 2020, 08:21:24 pm »
Anyone got the old grid ref for Hollandtwine shaft?
I have mine which differs with the first edition of the cod.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2020, 06:45:30 pm by paul, Reason: Updated title to make it more specific. »

Offline mikem

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Re: Grid ref
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2020, 10:17:43 pm »
Not sure whether this is new or old:
https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=12132.msg318408#msg318408

Last time you discussed it also has a grid ref from tamesider:
https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=3269.0

& same as my first link:
https://registry.thedca.org.uk/sitedetails.php?id=24
« Last Edit: July 31, 2020, 10:40:30 pm by mikem »

Offline phizz4

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Re: Grid ref
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2020, 09:41:26 am »
According to the 1898 map the crushing circle is at SK13985 81267
If I have identified the mine entrance correctly, slightly to the south of the track, it gives SK13956 81188.

Online AR

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Re: Grid ref
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2020, 11:56:13 am »
Attached are the 1898 25" OS overlaid onto modern satellite imagery and a 1958 air photo of Hazard and Hollandtwine blown up.

Also, the sketches of the surface remains that appeared in the Red Book were originally put into this article in the PDMHS bulletin - https://pdmhs.co.uk/MiningHistory/Bulletin%201-7%20-%20The%20Surface%20Remains%20on%20Dirtlow%20Rake.pdf
Dirty old mines need love too....

Offline Fishes

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Re: Grid ref
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2020, 12:39:49 pm »
Is this the one that is buried in the bottom of the big opencast?

I seem to remember Nick Butcher showing me a boulder that was covering it before they started backfilling.

Online pwhole

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Re: Grid ref
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2020, 12:58:27 pm »
I think the shaft location itself is not that far from the track - there's an information panel up there now. The big opencast, as I remember, was a huge and somewhat unusual fluorite pipe deposit, but I think higher than the Hollandtwine workings. It's all discussed (named as the 'Dirtlow Open-pit') in Trevor Ford's superb geological article a few years ago in Mining History - as there are so many caves and mines discussed each entry is somewhat limited, but he does mention all of Dirtlow Rake Head area - he quotes SK 140 812 for Hollandtwine but that looks too far south to me:

https://pdmhs.co.uk/MiningHistory/Bulletin%2017-5%20-%20The%20Geological%20Setting%20of%20the%20Lead%20Mines%20in%20the%20Northern%20Part%20of%20the%20White%20Peak.pdf

Also JRat's old logbooks do feature all the trip reports from Hollandtwine, but I haven't yet seen a grid ref for the shaft! Are we planning another dig then? ;)

Offline nickwilliams

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Re: Grid ref
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2020, 03:38:01 pm »
PB Smith took me to see the Hollandtwine shaft in about 1990. I remember a large, well ginged shaft with a piece of Ambideck over the top, next to a wall and a couple of minutes walk from the track where we parked.

But I could well be completely wrong....
"Economics is simply the branch of sociology that deals with people trading items and the fact that they use more numbers does not make it anymore of a science."

Offline T pot 2

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Re: Grid ref
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2020, 05:00:00 pm »
Your correct in your description nick.
Hollandtwine was one of my favourite mines.
The present day track was diverted due to spar getting, this is when the pit went deep.
The tributors planned to go east to bennet part but were stopped by the planning authorities and the main users of the minerals closing, the pit was mothballed because of lack of demand, portaway pit ceased to mine spar at the same time.
Pwhole - watch this space.

Offline T pot 2

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Re: Grid ref
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2020, 05:09:35 pm »
Anyone like to help with triangulation?

Online Pete K

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Re: Grid ref
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2020, 05:20:32 pm »
I have a little time right now while the outdoor industry recovers from Covid. Always keen to help if it is something within my skillset.

Offline Stoney Boy

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Re: Grid ref
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2020, 08:26:27 pm »
PB Smith took me to see the Hollandtwine shaft in about 1990. I remember a large, well ginged shaft with a piece of Ambideck over the top, next to a wall and a couple of minutes walk from the track where we parked.

But I could well be completely wrong....

What year did it disappear? It was not there by 92 as Moose and I tried to find it. Went down Hazard instead.

Online AR

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Re: Grid ref for Hollandtwine shaft
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2020, 09:00:42 pm »
Thinking of air photos, probably the best one to look at to get a good location on the shaft would be the 1971 OS run covering the Peak. The Peak Park have a full set of prints at their HQ but I don't think it would be possible to arrange a viewing right now.  :(
Dirty old mines need love too....

Offline Lampwick

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Re: Grid ref for Hollandtwine shaft
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2020, 09:23:23 pm »
We've just catalogued something from John Beck's collection about Hollandtwine for the British Caving Library. I seem to remember copies of aerial photos with lines and measurements on.  Might be worth asking Jenny or Mary...
Are we nearly there yet?

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Grid ref for Hollandtwine shaft
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2020, 09:31:51 pm »
Several years ago Moose and a few mates tried very hard to locate this shaft. I think the ultimate conclusion was that it was so well "landscaped" as to be virtually impossible to relocate accurately enough to justify the major operation which would be needed to re-enter it.

But . . . some time in the late 1970s I remember walking past it and you could see half of the ginging exposed by recent digging activity. It was obvious that the site would soon be lost, so I had the presence of mind to take a (black & white) photograph, which I made available to Moose when he was looking into this one more recently.

I can't remember whether the photo came back or whether it stayed with Moose. His filing system is probably a lot better than mine, so it's perhaps worth contacting him about it. He may have a scanned (i.e. electronic) copy.

I'm hoping that Moose sees your topic because I suspect he can probably tell you a lot more than I can.

This may or may not help . . . .

There is also something else that may be of use to know about; I'll PM you separately.

Offline nickwilliams

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Re: Grid ref
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2020, 11:19:28 pm »
What year did it disappear? It was not there by 92 as Moose and I tried to find it. Went down Hazard instead.

Having consulted my records, I am pretty sure my visit to Dirtlow Rake was in preparation for an EUG practical event held at the Caver's Fair which was based at Pindale Farm on 10 July 1993. I have a copy of a letter dated 7 Jul 93 asking the then operators (probably Pat Smith, although the letter doesn't say it) for permission to use the big pit. My guess is that the visit with PB was a few days before that, so that would put it as late June or early July 1993.

I suppose it's possible that the shaft was buried in 1992 and then uncovered again by mid 1993.

Does anyone know if Paul Deakin's archives are accessible? I'd have thought there was a good chance of there being some pictures in his collection.



"Economics is simply the branch of sociology that deals with people trading items and the fact that they use more numbers does not make it anymore of a science."

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Re: Grid ref for Hollandtwine shaft
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2020, 11:48:44 pm »
John Barnatt has control/access to PD's collection. I've seen photos of the excavation with the digger - didn't Shaun P take some? I seem to remember they were in a dusty corner of the photo archive on the Hitch & Hike site.

Offline Moose

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Re: Grid ref for Hollandtwine shaft
« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2020, 07:05:59 am »
I've got numerous maps, documents and GPS data on this which I'm happy to share. However, it's all theoretical banter and ultimately the prospect of regaining access to Hollandtwine from the shaft is virtually nil. In my opinion.

My advice would be to try and inspire the Ink sumpers to stop faffing about and get through that choke. ... which apparently one can see through!!

Offline Graigwen

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Re: Grid ref for Hollandtwine shaft
« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2020, 10:43:09 am »
stop faffing about and get through that choke. ... which apparently one can see through!!

Diggers always say they can see open passage through chokes    "...just another couple of metres, I can see it ahead...."

A month later you find it is open for 50cm and is 10cm high.

.

Offline aquamole jim

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Re: Grid ref for Hollandtwine shaft
« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2020, 12:45:28 pm »
We have made some good progress at Ink sump were the Hollandtwine water has been dye tested to, hopefully we will pop up at the bottom of the 70 foot natural shaft that J-Rat and crew found and were the water sinks. :-\

Offline T pot 2

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Re: Grid ref for Hollandtwine shaft
« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2020, 01:09:36 pm »
Moose your opinion is vaild and possibly correct however the question posed, does anyone have the correct grid ref, re Hollandtwine shaft? Gives no inference of digging or opening the shaft.
I need the grid for something else.

Offline Mark Wright

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Re: Grid ref for Hollandtwine shaft
« Reply #20 on: August 02, 2020, 02:17:50 pm »
Diggers always say they can see open passage through chokes    "...just another couple of metres, I can see it ahead...."

A month later you find it is open for 50cm and is 10cm high.

But sometimes........., e.g. the +/- 500m, mostly very high, Rowter Hole extensions.

Mind you, we always reckoned we could see something through the choke at the end of our original Rowter dig. It took us over 2 years to realise we were wrong!!

Mark


Online pwhole

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Re: Grid ref
« Reply #21 on: August 02, 2020, 03:26:04 pm »

Does anyone know if Paul Deakin's archives are accessible? I'd have thought there was a good chance of there being some pictures in his collection.

I forgot that I had the index to Paul Deakin's collection, so I can confirm (sadly) that there are no Hollandtwine photos listed :(

Offline T pot 2

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Re: Grid ref for Hollandtwine shaft
« Reply #22 on: August 02, 2020, 05:13:55 pm »
Pwhole
The only person I saw with a camera in Hollandtwine was P Thompson of the pegasus caving club.
Jarred wasn't the only person to record trips into the mine the pegasus trip journals would have quite a few write ups too.

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Grid ref for Hollandtwine shaft
« Reply #23 on: August 02, 2020, 07:49:35 pm »
The Pegasus Caving Club has a really good website, maintained by Cheg Chester. You may find something useful on there, maybe?

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Grid ref
« Reply #24 on: August 02, 2020, 07:59:16 pm »
What year did it disappear? It was not there by 92 as Moose and I tried to find it. Went down Hazard instead.

I suppose it's possible that the shaft was buried in 1992 and then uncovered again by mid 1993.

I think you're right Nick - it came and went a few times. Not long after I took the photo mentioned earlier, when the shaft was clearly on the point of being lost, I went for another look and it was definitely "landscaped". That would have been within months of the photo being taken. But I also have a vague memory of it becoming exposed again a number of years later, when Nick Butcher was working up there quite a lot. The large boulder that someone mentioned above also rings bells.  It may be that Nick B would have co-ordinates.

 

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