Author Topic: Covid travel restrictions and Police fines etc.  (Read 3435 times)

Offline PeteHall

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Covid travel restrictions and Police fines etc.
« on: February 08, 2021, 08:25:59 pm »
I'd be very interested to see how many of these fines actually stand up in court. There is after all nothing in the law about how far you can travel for outdoor exercise.


Global Moderator Comment Split from post about Police fining climbers in Cheddar Gorge at https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=27572
« Last Edit: February 09, 2021, 12:49:10 pm by paul »

Offline mikem

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Re: Covid travel restrictions and Police fines etc.
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2021, 08:41:41 pm »
But will anyone take it there? - as will cost you more than £200 to contest, even if your costs are covered...

Offline PeteHall

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Re: Covid travel restrictions and Police fines etc.
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2021, 08:45:12 pm »
Seems pretty clear to me...

Quote
The term ‘local area’ in this context has not been legally defined.

However, people should be sensible about this - if you do leave home for a permitted reason, you should stay local in the village, town, or part of the city where you live - unless there is a justifiable reason not to do so (for example, you need to travel further for work or to avoid harm).

Department of Health

Quote
The legislation does not stipulate how far someone is able to travel for exercise. As per the government guidance, ‘stay local’ means stay in the village, town or part of the city where you live. We are only able to enforce regulations based on the reasons why someone is out of their home – there is no mention about distance or travel in the regulations.

Leicestershire Police

Quote
“UK Government guidance strongly requests that people do not leave their local area. However, the Covid Regulations which officers enforce and which enables them to issue FPNs for breaches, do not restrict the distance travelled for exercise.

“Police officers will be inquisitive about why people are out of their homes and will explain the regulations and encourage people to comply. 

Where people are breaching the regulations and are away from home without a reasonable excuse, they may be issued with a FPN.  In situations where people are breaching the guidance not to travel out their local area but are not breaching regulations, officers will encourage people to follow the guidance.”

Derbyshire Police


Offline sinker

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Re: Covid travel restrictions and Police fines etc.
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2021, 09:19:27 pm »
I'd be very interested to see how many of these fines actually stand up in court. There is after all nothing in the law about how far you can travel for outdoor exercise.

While the letter of the law may not be clear, the spirit of it is....STAY AT HOME! DO NOT DRIVE 30 MILES TO VISIT CHEDDAR GORGE!! FFS!!! What is wrong with people?!
They shouldn't be doing it, they KNOW they shouldn't and anyone defending them should know better.
You can find a 'loophole' to get around a lot of things in life; doesn't mean you should.
Ah, well, now, you see...erm...

Offline Benfool

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Re: Covid travel restrictions and Police fines etc.
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2021, 09:28:26 pm »
Unless your name is Dominic Cummings and you're going to Barnard Castle instead of Cheddar Gorge....

Offline sinker

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Re: Covid travel restrictions and Police fines etc.
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2021, 09:30:54 pm »
Unless your name is Dominic Cummings and you're going to Barnard Castle instead of Cheddar Gorge....

Yeah. Great example to set, as usual.  >:(
Ah, well, now, you see...erm...

Offline mikem

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Re: Covid travel restrictions and Police fines etc.
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2021, 09:35:36 pm »
Although Cummings wasn't under current legislation - that was Boris' bike ride.

Latest rescuees would struggle to argue that they couldn't have got the same experience at a closer venue e.g. Avon gorge.

Offline AR

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Re: Covid travel restrictions and Police fines etc.
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2021, 09:39:01 pm »
There were some total knob-flakes from Luton who got stuck iup at Cat & Fiddle this last weekend - told the local plods they wanted to come and take some photos of snow, who then did some checks and found the car they'd come up in was a little lacking on the insurance front...
Dirty old mines need love too....

Offline maxb727

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Re: Covid travel restrictions and Police fines etc.
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2021, 09:47:17 pm »
They wouldn’t have been fined if they hadn’t of gotten themselves in a situation requiring rescue. What we don’t know is their experience and ability, maybe this was a completely unexpected situation. On the other hand they might have been out of their ability and taking a few too many risks.

Either way a large number of people had to go to assist them, bringing more people together than ideal currently.

Whatever the rules are or aren’t, it’s very hard to argue the fact that they caused unnecessary interactions.

Offline ZombieCake

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Re: Covid travel restrictions and Police fines etc.
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2021, 10:13:50 pm »
Maybe, if they'd driven around long enough to check their eyesight was OK they would not have got stuck as they would have been able to see the potential dangers of the situation.

Or, they could have stayed home and watched the goggle box like everyone else.

The problem was really set by precedent long ago with the likes of complete idiots like Fergusson and Cummings sticking two fingers up to the public.  That is the so-called establishment saying one thing and then doing another while people suffer. 

Offline mikem

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Re: Covid travel restrictions and Police fines etc.
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2021, 10:40:53 pm »
No change there, just nowadays they're more likely to get dobbed in.

Offline 2xw

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Re: Covid travel restrictions and Police fines etc.
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2021, 11:10:22 pm »
But will anyone take it there? - as will cost you more than £200 to contest, even if your costs are covered...

The students who were fined £10k for having a party got free representation and had the fines overturned. I'm not sure there's actually a right of appeal, so just waiting to decide if you will be prosecuted might be enough

Offline mikem

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Re: Covid travel restrictions and Police fines etc.
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2021, 11:46:05 pm »
Yeah, for 10k it's worth the time & effort.

Offline sinker

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Re: Covid travel restrictions and Police fines etc.
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2021, 05:23:49 am »
Yeah, for 10k it's worth the time & effort.

Sorry but that logic is ridiculous....it's like saying that if you've murdered someone and are facing a life sentence then it's "worth the time and effort" to get yourself off!!??!!

You did something you shouldn't have done. (went to Cheddar Gorge / had a party / murdered someone)
You got caught (fair cop)
Take it on the chin!
Learn from it.

That's life innit...?

Ah, well, now, you see...erm...

Offline Down and beyond

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Re: Covid travel restrictions and Police fines etc.
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2021, 06:46:45 am »
Yeah, for 10k it's worth the time & effort.

Sorry but that logic is ridiculous....it's like saying that if you've murdered someone and are facing a life sentence then it's "worth the time and effort" to get yourself off!!??!!

You did something you shouldn't have done. (went to Cheddar Gorge / had a party / murdered someone)
You got caught (fair cop)
Take it on the chin!
Learn from it.

That's life innit...?

Problem Is now days the majority of people are to thick in the head to learn from their mistakes  , they need a lot more harsh fines need to stick at least another zero on that £200
« Last Edit: February 09, 2021, 07:08:22 am by Down and beyond »

Offline PeteHall

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Re: Covid travel restrictions and Police fines etc.
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2021, 08:00:48 am »
Get a boldly grip! Travelling 30 miles for outdoor exercise is hardly on par with murdering someone, in anybody's book.  :furious:

As per the police quotes above, if no law has been broken, they should not be handing out a fine. If they do it should be challenged. It's called respecting the law.

Police fining people who have not broken the law should not be tolerated in a free society. This is not a police state, where the police are above the law, or can invent new laws on a whim.

Offline sinker

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Re: Covid travel restrictions and Police fines etc.
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2021, 08:09:02 am »

Get a boldly grip! Travelling 30 miles for outdoor exercise is hardly on par with murdering someone, in anybody's book.  :furious:


You could have blood on your hands either way. Actually or metaphorically.

It's not a police state.
Get on your high horse about £200 fines for littering or for driving 2mph over the speed limit. Challenge that sort of daftness all day long but when we are in the middle of an ever changing global pandemic and people are dying before our very eyes you need to grow up, man up and back down.

Anyway, you know you're wrong. That's enough for me.

Right, can someone explain how to delete my profile and unsubscribe from UKC please. Or just ban me if its quicker.
I've seen enough. I'll wait until AN is back up and running next year. Back to some common sense.

Ah, well, now, you see...erm...

Offline mikem

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Re: Covid travel restrictions and Police fines etc.
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2021, 08:24:19 am »
Just don't look at it... (Cavers aren't known for their societal norms)

The problem isn't the police, it's that the government have said one thing in their guidance & then not backed it up with the legislation. So a lot of the fines issued aren't legal.

Offline Down and beyond

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Re: Covid travel restrictions and Police fines etc.
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2021, 08:36:19 am »
I respect it’s the governments fault and they should of made it legislation/law , I still can’t help  feel that all these idiots going out making a cave / mine rescue happen is just slowing it down for the rest of us to get out .  The rescue teams are doing their  job/hobby which is great but sadly one of them might not no they have Covid and give it to another 50 people just because some one feels the need to go underground in the middle of a pandemic ? They do need to make this law and ramp the fines up until covid is controlled enough for us all to go out and do what we love .

Offline royfellows

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Re: Covid travel restrictions and Police fines etc.
« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2021, 08:55:35 am »

Right, can someone explain how to delete my profile and unsubscribe from UKC please. Or just ban me if its quicker.
I've seen enough. I'll wait until AN is back up and running next year. Back to some common sense.

Please no old friend.
Its going to be along time.
Kinda, explains AN rules though a bit, Mmm.
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Offline PeteHall

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Re: Covid travel restrictions and Police fines etc.
« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2021, 09:04:50 am »
In this case, the additional risk the climbers have put people at is associated with their chosen exercise activity (relative to their level of ability), not the fact that they drove half an hour to get there. It would have been the same situation if someone from Cheddar had done the same thing, but I doubt that it would have got half the attention.

Presumably this is why the government did not mention travel distance in the law, simply what you are allowed to leave for.

Regardless of the perceived rights or wrongs of what they did, the law is the law. If they broke it, they should expect a fine. If they didn't break it, they should not be fined. There really is no debate.

Obviously this may be a case of poor reporting, the climbers may have told the police they had travelled to Cheddar to see the sunset, which is not a permitted reason to leave home at the moment, regardless of the distance. In which case the fine would be legal, even if they lived in Cheddar.

I'm not saying I agree with this, simply that the police need to work within the law, just like everyone else.

Offline mikem

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Re: Covid travel restrictions and Police fines etc.
« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2021, 09:18:54 am »
It doesn't matter what their excuse, the fact that they drove past other climbing venues to get there means they were in the wrong (although it doesn't sound as though they were actually climbers, more likely tourists who got up one of the lower buttresses & then were unable to climb down).
« Last Edit: February 09, 2021, 09:35:02 am by mikem »

Offline Badlad

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Re: Covid travel restrictions and Police fines etc.
« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2021, 09:26:32 am »
Covid, lockdown type threads have been discussed on here many times over the last year.  People are affected in many different ways.  Anything from losing a loved one, through some very dark feelings, to having very little impact at all.  What is abundantly clear is that people hold very different views on these issues.  That is reflected on here and throughout society.  I think it is healthy to hear those views and they have been reflected on here in a generally civil way.  Throughout the year the moderators have had to take very little action.

I realise AN is far stricter on what subjects can be discussed .  This thread for example is a warning about people being fined in Cheddar Gorge which is at the centre of a major caving region.  So relevant and the discussion then flows.  In any case although there is much talk about caving and related activities posting on ukcaving is not restricted to that.  There are music videos, jokes, silly pictures, competitions, idle chat etc.  Some of these are incredibly popular with Friday Joke having nearly a million and a half views and over seven thousand posts - that's a lot of jokes to look through if you get bored BTW.. 

Anyway, sinker, we are a very different forum I hope you'll give us more of a chance. Cheers

Offline Alex

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Re: Covid travel restrictions and Police fines etc.
« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2021, 09:27:18 am »
I never get why it's such a big deal to travel to do your exercise, is it the length of time out of home or something, or just trying to stop the virus moving around? Either way though the risk is the same, you either risk infecting people in your local area (nothing stopping you falling over and twisting an ankle in the local countryside and causing a resuce) or you are spreading it somewhere else? As we are told it's everywhere anyway, why does it matter where you go? I feel at far more risk locally now as so many other people are forced to stay local. I used to not see anyone out and about now I am diving into bushes avoiding every family out sledging on my allowed daily exercise. I would much rather go somewhere further away to avoid people, but for some reason I would get fined if I did that, where's the friggin logic.

I perfectly understand you should avoid doing anything risky in case of a call out, but why does it matter where you do it. Yes some beauty spots get overwhelmed because people are stupid sheep and all go the same places, the solution is to simply close parking in those places.

Surely if we are expected to lock down every winter, they have got to give us some reasonable freedom, otherwise we will all go insane. We are in it for the longhaul, the vaccines don't work against the South African varient and this is only the start, so I am struggling to see a positive future, lockdowns forever, if so we need a reasonable middle ground!? either that and do a proper shorter lockdown and wipe it out like they did in NZ, but the gov is not brave enough to do that, instead preferring to keep us in lockdowns/tier 3 for a year now rather than a month of proper lock-downs to wipe it out.

Lockdown would be easier if anyone actually believed this would be the last one, because I sure as hell don't with this bunch of clowns in charge, and they still have not closed the fecking borders!
Anything I say is represents my own opinion and not that of a any club/organisation that I am a member of (unless its good of course)

Offline mikem

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Re: Covid travel restrictions and Police fines etc.
« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2021, 09:32:44 am »
The rules are aimed at people who can't think sensibly for themselves, the rest of us are caught in the fall out. Unfortunately the implementation has not been well thought out either, but the only thing they were hopeful of achieving was slowing the spread (hence not taking it to other areas - there are far fewer ICU beds in tourist areas than cities), as hospitals did get close to breaking point.

 

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