Author Topic: Cave Related Climate Change discussion  (Read 13753 times)

emgee

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Re: Cave Related Climate Change discussion
« Reply #25 on: February 04, 2007, 07:03:39 pm »
I think you will find it is air. Actually, oxygen-enriched, as oxygen is more soluble in water than nitrogen. Despite the smell you get from tap water, there is virtually no chlorine in tap water - the smell is from some harmless complex chlorine compound I seem to recall, that forms when water is chlorinated.



There's enough to kill tropical fish. Which is where I heard it was chlorine.

Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: Cave Related Climate Change discussion
« Reply #26 on: February 04, 2007, 09:43:58 pm »
I think you will find it is air. Actually, oxygen-enriched, as oxygen is more soluble in water than nitrogen. Despite the smell you get from tap water, there is virtually no chlorine in tap water - the smell is from some harmless complex chlorine compound I seem to recall, that forms when water is chlorinated.



There's enough to kill tropical fish. Which is where I heard it was chlorine.

Well I am 99 percent, no sod it, 100 percent sure that it is not chlorine. If it was, then we would all have died a long time ago like the poor sods on the Western Front, by just having a bath. It IS air. Perhaps this fallacy explains why so many people are taken in by the notion that bottled water is safer than tap water, and spend millions each year drinking it and them throwing away all those wasteful plastic bottles. No, let's not go there. Please get back on topic!

Offline Les W

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Re: Cave Related Climate Change discussion
« Reply #27 on: February 04, 2007, 09:55:40 pm »
I'm sure Peter is right, chlorine is only a trace in tap water and will escape to the atmosphere by diffusion if left in an uncovered jug in a fridge for 15 mins or so. The bubbles are air and if the water board have been messing with the supply, the water from the tap can look white from trapped air but will clear if left to stand for a short time.

Incidentally if you do leave water to stand in the fridge until the chlorine has escaped the resulting water is nicer than bottled water, much cheaper and also better for the environment than bottled water.
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Offline gus horsley

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Re: Cave Related Climate Change discussion
« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2007, 09:18:02 am »
Buy a water filter if you want to get shot of chlorine in your tap water.  far, far cheaper than bottled stuff, probably half of which is tap water put through a filter anyway.

Now back to the topic?

Offline whitelackington

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Re: Cave Related Climate Change discussion
« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2007, 09:27:29 am »
Because of the biological / chemical reactions that happen in caves
they already have much greater percentages of carbon dioxide in them that outside.
If the outside Co2 levels go up slightly,
perhaps the Co2 levels in caves go up even more substantially.

Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: Cave Related Climate Change discussion
« Reply #30 on: February 05, 2007, 09:29:43 am »
But can you provide a explanation why you think this happens?

Offline whitelackington

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Re: Cave Related Climate Change discussion
« Reply #31 on: February 05, 2007, 09:50:07 am »
But can you provide a explanation why you think this happens?
No I cannot

perhaps this is where the U.B.S.S. come in?

Offline graham

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Re: Cave Related Climate Change discussion
« Reply #32 on: February 05, 2007, 10:05:50 am »
But can you provide a explanation why you think this happens?
No I cannot

perhaps this is where the U.B.S.S. come in?

They come in, stare at the discussion, and quietly tiptoe away again.
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Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: Cave Related Climate Change discussion
« Reply #33 on: February 05, 2007, 10:09:03 am »
UBSS should be flattered that (some) cavers regard them as the fount of all Mendip speleological knowledge.

Offline graham

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Re: Cave Related Climate Change discussion
« Reply #34 on: February 05, 2007, 10:11:40 am »
Facts are facts, peter ...  ;)
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Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: Cave Related Climate Change discussion
« Reply #35 on: February 05, 2007, 10:17:49 am »
Welcome back, by the way. I wouldn't bother trying to catch up on what the forum has been discussing - it's all just nonsense, and a big heap of rantings, and none of it posted with any careful consideration or logic. Apart from this topic, of course.

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: Cave Related Climate Change discussion
« Reply #36 on: February 05, 2007, 10:32:48 am »
all just nonsense, and a big heap of rantings, and none of it posted with any careful consideration or logic

Shhhh!, Peter! Graham's back; he might hear you!   ;)

Offline gus horsley

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Re: Cave Related Climate Change discussion
« Reply #37 on: February 05, 2007, 10:36:16 am »
Here's another possible long-term effect of climate change on caves:  erosion of speleothems.  If there is an increased rainfall on the surface, there will be an increased percolation rate through the minute fissures which allow CaCO3 to be taken into solution and precipitated.  The increased flow can exceed the point at which CaCO3 is precipitated and erosion takes over.  Therefore many of our formations may start to slowly disappear.

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: Cave Related Climate Change discussion
« Reply #38 on: February 05, 2007, 10:42:42 am »
But that's a natural process. Unless, of course, people are aliens.

Offline gus horsley

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Re: Cave Related Climate Change discussion
« Reply #39 on: February 05, 2007, 10:48:29 am »
But that's a natural process. Unless, of course, people are aliens.

How do you mean?

Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: Cave Related Climate Change discussion
« Reply #40 on: February 05, 2007, 10:53:29 am »
Did Gus suggest it wasn't a natural process? Ice melting is a natural process.  :shrug:

Offline whitelackington

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Re: Cave Related Climate Change discussion
« Reply #41 on: February 05, 2007, 11:25:57 am »
One natural process that caused some species to virtually self destruct
was the over population of organisms that excreted oxygen.
They gassed themselves out of the outside environment and retreated underground.
Are they now taking their revenge :-\

Offline Les W

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Re: Cave Related Climate Change discussion
« Reply #42 on: February 05, 2007, 06:51:55 pm »
Here's another possible long-term effect of climate change on caves:  erosion of speleothems.  If there is an increased rainfall on the surface, there will be an increased percolation rate through the minute fissures which allow CaCO3 to be taken into solution and precipitated.  The increased flow can exceed the point at which CaCO3 is precipitated and erosion takes over.  Therefore many of our formations may start to slowly disappear.
The dissolution of Stal requires that the cave atmosphere has substantially higher CO2 than the water, and that the wate is not saturated with CO2

The water will then take more CO2 from the [cave] atmosphere and become more aggressive. If the water is saturated (normally the case) then the water will not get more aggressive and will not erode the speleothems.
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Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: Cave Related Climate Change discussion
« Reply #43 on: February 05, 2007, 07:09:46 pm »
Here's another possible long-term effect of climate change on caves:  erosion of speleothems.  If there is an increased rainfall on the surface, there will be an increased percolation rate through the minute fissures which allow CaCO3 to be taken into solution and precipitated.  The increased flow can exceed the point at which CaCO3 is precipitated and erosion takes over.  Therefore many of our formations may start to slowly disappear.
The dissolution of Stal requires that the cave atmosphere has substantially higher CO2 than the water, and that the wate is not saturated with CO2

The water will then take more CO2 from the [cave] atmosphere and become more aggressive. If the water is saturated (normally the case) then the water will not get more aggressive and will not erode the speleothems.

I wonder if the monasteries had a lower tolerance threshhold to carbon dioxide. Sorry.  :-[

andymorgan

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Re: Cave Related Climate Change discussion
« Reply #44 on: February 05, 2007, 07:39:51 pm »
One natural process that caused some species to virtually self destruct
was the over population of organisms that excreted oxygen.
They gassed themselves out of the outside environment and retreated underground.
Are they now taking their revenge :-\

Are you talking about plants  :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: Cave Related Climate Change discussion
« Reply #45 on: February 05, 2007, 08:19:57 pm »
But that's a natural process. Unless, of course, people are aliens.

How do you mean?

Oops! Sorry, Gus; I was off with the fairies. You make a good observation (I re-read the title of this thread) and that's what this is about, not the whys-and-wherefores of climate change, about which I was thinking.

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: Cave Related Climate Change discussion
« Reply #46 on: February 06, 2007, 12:25:28 am »
Here's some very good footage of a floodpulse - for anyone who doesn't know what one is!

BTW they do occur in the UK and you can well imagine the consequences of being underground! - sobering stuff, indeed.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8750134985340587369

Offline whitelackington

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Re: Cave Related Climate Change discussion
« Reply #47 on: February 06, 2007, 06:34:41 am »
Here's another possible long-term effect of climate change on caves:  erosion of speleothems.  If there is an increased rainfall on the surface, there will be an increased percolation rate through the minute fissures which allow CaCO3 to be taken into solution and precipitated.  The increased flow can exceed the point at which CaCO3 is precipitated and erosion takes over.  Therefore many of our formations may start to slowly disappear.
The dissolution of Stal requires that the cave atmosphere has substantially higher CO2 than the water, and that the wate is not saturated with CO2

The water will then take more CO2 from the [cave] atmosphere and become more aggressive. If the water is saturated (normally the case) then the water will not get more aggressive and will not erode the speleothems.

I wonder if the monasteries had a lower tolerance threshhold to carbon dioxide. Sorry.  :-[
After Henry enacted the dissolution of the monastries,
he went on to dissolute his own marriage :lol:

Offline whitelackington

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Re: Cave Related Climate Change discussion
« Reply #48 on: February 06, 2007, 06:36:12 am »
One natural process that caused some species to virtually self destruct
was the over population of organisms that excreted oxygen.
They gassed themselves out of the outside environment and retreated underground.
Are they now taking their revenge :-\

Are you talking about plants  :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\

They used to be called bacteria, they made the oxygen rich atmosphere we now enjoy

Offline gus horsley

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Re: Cave Related Climate Change discussion
« Reply #49 on: February 06, 2007, 09:23:54 am »
But that's a natural process. Unless, of course, people are aliens.

How do you mean?

Oops! Sorry, Gus; I was off with the fairies. You make a good observation (I re-read the title of this thread) and that's what this is about, not the whys-and-wherefores of climate change, about which I was thinking.

Not a problem mate.

 

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