Author Topic: Cave Related Climate Change discussion  (Read 13740 times)

andymorgan

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Re: Cave Related Climate Change discussion
« Reply #50 on: February 06, 2007, 04:26:03 pm »
They used to be called bacteria, they made the oxygen rich atmosphere we now enjoy

What are they called now?

Offline whitelackington

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Re: Cave Related Climate Change discussion
« Reply #51 on: February 06, 2007, 04:33:16 pm »
I don't know, they seem to be re-evaluating what is a bacteria

andymorgan

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Re: Cave Related Climate Change discussion
« Reply #52 on: February 06, 2007, 04:37:00 pm »
I get what you mean now, they are known as archaea.

Offline gus horsley

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Re: Cave Related Climate Change discussion
« Reply #53 on: February 07, 2007, 02:44:00 pm »
There would be changes to the fauna of caves.  I'm not sure how global warming will affect bats but I'm fairly certain it will be negative.  They may not go into hibernation due to the temperature not dropping below a sufficient level (6 degrees and below for horseshoe bats) which means they may be active throughout the winter.  Most hibernating bats mate in the autumn but don't become pregnant until the early spring (which is quite a feat) so I suspect that warmer winters will seriously disrupt their gestation cycles.  There may also be a lack of food in the winter which is one of the reasons they hibernate in the first place.

Offline Elaine

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Re: Cave Related Climate Change discussion
« Reply #54 on: February 07, 2007, 05:56:05 pm »
I would have thought that if bats go into hibernation when the temperature reaches a certain low, then that would be because that is the temperature that their food source would start to become scarce. Just guessing.
Wot tiny writing!

Offline kay

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Re: Cave Related Climate Change discussion
« Reply #55 on: February 07, 2007, 06:04:15 pm »
There would be changes to the fauna of caves.  I'm not sure how global warming will affect bats but I'm fairly certain it will be negative.  They may not go into hibernation due to the temperature not dropping below a sufficient level (6 degrees and below for horseshoe bats) which means they may be active throughout the winter.  Most hibernating bats mate in the autumn but don't become pregnant until the early spring (which is quite a feat) so I suspect that warmer winters will seriously disrupt their gestation cycles.  There may also be a lack of food in the winter which is one of the reasons they hibernate in the first place.

Is there not capacity for some of them to move northwards? Are not some of the species on their northern boundary in the UK? I think we have only 4 species in Yorkshire compared with the quite a few more down south. I know it's not as simple as that - how fussy are they about what they eat? And availability of insects depends on availability, ultimately, of food plants, and plants can't move range as quickly as animals.

Offline whitelackington

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Re: Cave Related Climate Change discussion
« Reply #56 on: February 08, 2007, 06:59:59 am »
I wonder if bats fly north for the summer,
cos on the tundra there are shit loads of insects in the summer.

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: Cave Related Climate Change discussion
« Reply #57 on: February 08, 2007, 09:55:05 am »
What, migrate? - like birds*, chavs and the elderly?

* specifically those birds which migrate.

Offline gus horsley

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Re: Cave Related Climate Change discussion
« Reply #58 on: February 08, 2007, 10:43:43 am »
It doesn't necessarily follow that there will be an increase in insects during warmer winters.  Many of our moths and butterflies are known to migrate from the continent but its suspected that fairly rapid climate change doesn't mean they will change their long-established habits and migrate here earlier in the year.  So there could be a food shortage for bats which don't hibernate.

Offline whitelackington

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Re: Cave Related Climate Change discussion
« Reply #59 on: February 14, 2007, 08:54:05 am »
Are there any cave scientists out there?

Has any work been done to determine if increased carbon dioxide concentrations in the outside atmosphere have an exaggerated effect underground?
Already there apparently is a massively greater % of CO2 in a cave than up top. :thumbsdown:

Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: Cave Related Climate Change discussion
« Reply #60 on: February 14, 2007, 09:18:56 am »
"exaggerated"

That's a good word. We've got some expert "exaggerators" on the forum.

Offline whitelackington

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Re: Cave Related Climate Change discussion
« Reply #61 on: February 14, 2007, 11:03:30 am »
Are there any cave scientists out there?

Has any work been done to determine if increased carbon dioxide concentrations in the outside atmosphere have an exaggerated effect underground?
Already there apparently is a massively greater % of CO2 in a cave than up top. :thumbsdown:

I was actually hoping for a usefull answer :-\

Offline gus horsley

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Re: Cave Related Climate Change discussion
« Reply #62 on: February 14, 2007, 02:37:11 pm »
Are there any cave scientists out there?

Has any work been done to determine if increased carbon dioxide concentrations in the outside atmosphere have an exaggerated effect underground?
Already there apparently is a massively greater % of CO2 in a cave than up top. :thumbsdown:

I was actually hoping for a usefull answer :-\

I'm nothing like an expert in this area but, as I understand it, the CO2 percentage in the atmosphere hasn't really gone up by much at all so I wouldn't expect it to noticeably affect a cave environment.  If I'm wrong can someone say why?

Offline dl

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Re: Cave Related Climate Change discussion
« Reply #63 on: February 14, 2007, 04:34:48 pm »
Pre-industry around 250ppm CO2 in atmosphere.

Now around 378ppm, estimated 990ppm by 2100.

I've no idea what effect that would have on the cave environment, perhaps someone would like to sponsor a little research ?

Offline whitelackington

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Re: Cave Related Climate Change discussion
« Reply #64 on: February 14, 2007, 04:56:27 pm »
I thought at the height of the last glaciation it was 150 or 160 ppm.
But in a cave it can reach 2% of cave atmosphere
so is that a possibility of about one hundred times greater concentration in a cave atmosphere compared to the outside atmosphere?

Offline Elaine

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Re: Cave Related Climate Change discussion
« Reply #65 on: February 14, 2007, 06:44:43 pm »
As the CO2 in caves seems to fluctuate - certainly in particular places anyway, it wont be related to the concentration of the outside atmosphere in any significant way. Or at least I would not have thought so. Especially when you remember 2 - 3 years ago the C02 in GB was 4%, and is much less now though the outside concentrations of C02 have not changed (much) in that time. It seems that there is another, or maybe several processes that change the atmopsheric gas concentrations within the cave. We have once or twice measured C02 levels in Templeton. Once shortly before banging, and the other time was just after digging (lots of sweaty heavy breathing males and one female - lucky ole me!) The former was 0.1 to 0.2%, the latter 1%. Although you could argue that it isn't a cave (how dare you!!) and it was only about 100ft down at the time, so probably was full of fresh atmospheric air anyway.
Wot tiny writing!

Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: Cave Related Climate Change discussion
« Reply #66 on: February 14, 2007, 07:06:06 pm »
I would give credit to an indirect effect. Something that might be affecting soil or something else, that then goes on to affect the cave air. To say that increased CO2 outside directly causes disproportionately higher levels underground is very unlikely I suspect.

Offline whitelackington

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Re: Cave Related Climate Change discussion
« Reply #67 on: February 15, 2007, 04:00:41 pm »
As the CO2 in caves seems to fluctuate - certainly in particular places anyway, it wont be related to the concentration of the outside atmosphere in any significant way. Or at least I would not have thought so. Especially when you remember 2 - 3 years ago the C02 in GB was 4%, and is much less now though the outside concentrations of C02 have not changed (much) in that time. It seems that there is another, or maybe several processes that change the atmopsheric gas concentrations within the cave. We have once or twice measured C02 levels in Templeton. Once shortly before banging, and the other time was just after digging (lots of sweaty heavy breathing males and one female - lucky ole me!) The former was 0.1 to 0.2%, the latter 1%. Although you could argue that it isn't a cave (how dare you!!) and it was only about 100ft down at the time, so probably was full of fresh atmospheric air anyway.

I did not know it had reached 4% in G.B. Cavern, are you sure Anne, that seems ridiculously high :o

Offline graham

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Re: Cave Related Climate Change discussion
« Reply #68 on: February 15, 2007, 04:55:47 pm »
As the CO2 in caves seems to fluctuate - certainly in particular places anyway, it wont be related to the concentration of the outside atmosphere in any significant way. Or at least I would not have thought so. Especially when you remember 2 - 3 years ago the C02 in GB was 4%, and is much less now though the outside concentrations of C02 have not changed (much) in that time. It seems that there is another, or maybe several processes that change the atmopsheric gas concentrations within the cave. We have once or twice measured C02 levels in Templeton. Once shortly before banging, and the other time was just after digging (lots of sweaty heavy breathing males and one female - lucky ole me!) The former was 0.1 to 0.2%, the latter 1%. Although you could argue that it isn't a cave (how dare you!!) and it was only about 100ft down at the time, so probably was full of fresh atmospheric air anyway.

I did not know it had reached 4% in G.B. Cavern, are you sure Anne, that seems ridiculously high :o

That figure is correct. CCC Ltd closed the cave as a safety measure.
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