Author Topic: Danger - Rhinos Rift  (Read 34568 times)

Offline whitelackington

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Re: Danger - Rhinos Rift
« Reply #50 on: April 12, 2007, 10:34:55 am »
Nobody ever answered my point of some time ago.
That point was; why did the management committee of O.F.D. decide NOT to fit "p" bolts in O.F.D. but stainless steel 12mm Petzl Hangers.


Mind you I like the Petzl hangers and the "P" bolts
both systems seem much better than the old 8mm ones.

Offline axbridgecaver

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Re: Danger - Rhinos Rift
« Reply #51 on: April 12, 2007, 11:07:24 am »
I have not come across a "P" bolt which seemed to me to be faulty.
I have not been on an s.r.t. trip on which any other person on that trip
had suggested that any of the bolts were in any way faulty.
I have been doing s.r.t. for a very, very long time.
I, like many others, have been "P" bolt trained, also a long time ago.
The one I installed was in Gough's Cave.
Keep pulling the bolts can not be doing them any good.
That must be obvious. :-\



I have no intention of debating this subject in detail, as a comprehensive report on the situation is being prepared for BCA by folks who know far more about this than I do.

However, this post by Whitelackington (and this is not meant personally, it simply exemplifies a viewpoint I have come across in a number of places) demonstrates the reason why the extremely cautious approach taken by BCA is the correct one. The fact of the matter is that we have now had a statistically alarming number of failures and the poor condition of those bolts was not discernable on visual inspection. "User beware" was no longer a good policy.

Agree wholeheartedly with Graham. I wish that the speculation over the mode of failure would cease. When the BCA report is issued the reason for the failures will be apparent.

Offline paul

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Re: Danger - Rhinos Rift
« Reply #52 on: April 12, 2007, 12:15:53 pm »
I have not come across a "P" bolt which seemed to me to be faulty.
I have not been on an s.r.t. trip on which any other person on that trip
had suggested that any of the bolts were in any way faulty.
I have been doing s.r.t. for a very, very long time.
I, like many others, have been "P" bolt trained, also a long time ago.
The one I installed was in Gough's Cave.
Keep pulling the bolts can not be doing them any good.
That must be obvious. :-\

I have no intention of debating this subject in detail, as a comprehensive report on the situation is being prepared for BCA by folks who know far more about this than I do.

However, this post by Whitelackington (and this is not meant personally, it simply exemplifies a viewpoint I have come across in a number of places) demonstrates the reason why the extremely cautious approach taken by BCA is the correct one. The fact of the matter is that we have now had a statistically alarming number of failures and the poor condition of those bolts was not discernable on visual inspection. "User beware" was no longer a good policy.

Agree wholeheartedly with Graham. I wish that the speculation over the mode of failure would cease. When the BCA report is issued the reason for the failures will be apparent.

Exactly.
I'm not a complete idiot: some parts are missing!

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: Danger - Rhinos Rift
« Reply #53 on: April 12, 2007, 02:30:52 pm »
why did the management committee of O.F.D. decide NOT to fit "p" bolts in O.F.D. but stainless steel 12mm Petzl Hangers.

Write to them.


andymorgan

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Re: Danger - Rhinos Rift
« Reply #54 on: April 12, 2007, 05:17:12 pm »

Quote
Keep pulling the bolts can not be doing them any good.

I'll stop testing my smoke alarm, and stop taking my car in for its MOT as it's obviously not doing my smoke alarm or my car any good.


It is not quite the same thing, maybe drop testing a rope is possibly more comparable.



Agree wholeheartedly with Graham. I wish that the speculation over the mode of failure would cease. When the BCA report is issued the reason for the failures will be apparent.

It is human nature to speculate about the causes of things. It is good scientific practice to consider, and then eliminate all possible explanations.

However I am sure the guys at BCA are looking into everything. People shouldn't feel guilty on here either for posting a bit of 'pub chat', it is a discussion forum after all.

Offline whitelackington

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Re: Danger - Rhinos Rift
« Reply #55 on: April 12, 2007, 06:14:45 pm »

Quote
Keep pulling the bolts can not be doing them any good.

I'll stop testing my smoke alarm, and stop taking my car in for its MOT as it's obviously not doing my smoke alarm or my car any good.


It is not quite the same thing, maybe drop testing a rope is possibly more comparable.



Agree wholeheartedly with Graham. I wish that the speculation over the mode of failure would cease. When the BCA report is issued the reason for the failures will be apparent.

It is human nature to speculate about the causes of things. It is good scientific practice to consider, and then eliminate all possible explanations.

However I am sure the guys at BCA are looking into everything. People shouldn't feel guilty on here either for posting a bit of 'pub chat', it is a discussion forum after all.

Exactly,
if I am not allowed to discuss possible causes of bolt failure on this caving forum,
where should i be allowed to discuss it?
Or perhaps I should just keep my views to myself and let the grown ups discuss it :annoyed:

Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: Danger - Rhinos Rift
« Reply #56 on: April 12, 2007, 06:26:01 pm »
Ah, but there is a difference between intelligent discussion using reasoned argument, and scaremongering, not that I am accusing anyone of that, but on a national respected forum, one should be aware of the consequences of what one posts.

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: Danger - Rhinos Rift
« Reply #57 on: April 12, 2007, 06:28:30 pm »
 ;) There may also be a difference between intelligent discussion using reasoned argument and a national respected forum, Peter; however, I'd like to think that a forum is respected nationally BECAUSE of the reasoned and intelligent discussions and debates which occur within it.

Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: Danger - Rhinos Rift
« Reply #58 on: April 12, 2007, 06:34:35 pm »
As for comparability of tests, a good test of something that you intend to have continuing to serve its original purpose should not significantly alter the state of the item being tested. If it does then the item was either faulty or the test was badly designed. Testing something to destruction is not the same thing.

andymorgan

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Re: Danger - Rhinos Rift
« Reply #59 on: April 12, 2007, 11:34:22 pm »
Ah, but there is a difference between intelligent discussion using reasoned argument, and scaremongering, not that I am accusing anyone of that, but on a national respected forum, one should be aware of the consequences of what one posts.

I think the bolt testing question was an entirely sensible question, rather than scaremongering. I also think Cap'n Chris provided a sensible answer of why testing is unlikely to have caused anchor failure ( :read: WL).

As for comparability of tests, a good test of something that you intend to have continuing to serve its original purpose should not significantly alter the state of the item being tested. If it does then the item was either faulty or the test was badly designed. Testing something to destruction is not the same thing.

That was my point...

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: Danger - Rhinos Rift
« Reply #60 on: April 13, 2007, 07:43:49 am »
As for comparability of tests, a good test of something that you intend to have continuing to serve its original purpose should not significantly alter the state of the item being tested. If it does then the item was either faulty or the test was badly designed. Testing something to destruction is not the same thing.

That was my point...

If something is designed to take a load then it would seem that a valid and reasonable test would be to place a load within a defined tolerance upon that device; if it cannot withstand the (reasonable) load without failing then surely it is not fit for purpose?

« Last Edit: April 13, 2007, 08:00:45 am by cap 'n chris, Reason: grammar »

cucc Paul

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Re: Danger - Rhinos Rift
« Reply #61 on: April 13, 2007, 12:40:46 pm »
Spits can supposedly hold 15KN on a straight pull, and the petzl resin anchors can withstand 15KN on a straight pull, if installed correctly, therefore P bolts would be comparable to this 15KN figure. Therefore they should easyily shrug off 6KN as this is less than half the rating.  I believe it is more likely to be something environmental to the region, either the more fractured limstone, which has already been mentioned or something within the surrounding environment of the anchor such as the surrounding air or water reacting with the resin, either once in place or during the curing process. I think the later more likely.

The bolt that failed initially looked as if the resin had not bonded propperly to the bolt as the seperation between the two was very clean, no resin remained on the bolt and a perfect mould was left in the resin. Leading me to think along the lines of water ingress along the bolt during curing preventing a good bond between the two surfaces. I dont know the exact chemisty of the resin so this might not be an issue.

Alternativly disolved salts in the rock, higher than average acid concentration in the water, or any combination of things could react with the resin while its setting, weakening it or preventing a good bond between surfaces. Again i don't know the chemistry that could be behind this and I am just theorising.

I'm guessing as no one has said anything the re-opening of the cave is still some way off  :down:

Offline whitelackington

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Re: Danger - Rhinos Rift
« Reply #62 on: April 13, 2007, 02:38:16 pm »
Yes a huge pity. :weep:
We were all greatly grateful that in recent times
The Mendip "P" Bolt fiasco had come to an end.

Dep

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Re: Danger - Rhinos Rift
« Reply #63 on: April 13, 2007, 11:41:05 pm »
...
The bolt that failed initially looked as if the resin had not bonded propperly to the bolt as the seperation between the two was very clean, no resin remained on the bolt and a perfect mould was left in the resin. Leading me to think along the lines of water ingress along the bolt during curing preventing a good bond between the two surfaces.
...

A silly observation but one I will make anyway...
It has been pointed out (by Graham or CnC I think) that there are enough test-failures here to statistically indicate a significant 'issue' with the bolts in these two sites. This suggests a systematic error in emplacement perhaps.

This could easily be something as silly as sweaty fingers - a thin film of skin-grease on steel could cause this to happen, or protective oil layers not being adequately cleaned off and so on.

Given the level of care on this subject I will be very surprised if there turns out to be any obvious fault such as bad holes, bad hangers or incorrectly mixed resin - I am sure that the people doing it were competent enough to have done this all perfectly.
If this does indeed turn out to be the case then it may be something silly like I have suggested above that is the cause.

Offline badger

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Re: Danger - Rhinos Rift
« Reply #64 on: April 14, 2007, 09:17:39 am »
Dep think if the failure is due to your observations, failures would be happening all over the caving regions that have placed P bolts, the fact that this not happening would suggest that the mendip failure is due to something else, and all conjecture and specultation is of no point. We need to wait for the expert report from those conducting the investigation.

Dep

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Re: Danger - Rhinos Rift
« Reply #65 on: April 15, 2007, 12:27:32 am »
yes and no. I was thinking in terms of a systematic error which affects batches of bolts - I understood the RR bolts were all put in with the same resin batch.

But you are right to say we shouldn't speculate pending the facts - I'll stop now, it was just a passing thought!

Offline whitelackington

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Re: Danger - Rhinos Rift
« Reply #66 on: April 17, 2007, 08:28:46 am »
If a party were going continental and wish to practice on spits,
 if they wished to do the right hand route in Rhino Rift,
would that be allowed?

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: Danger - Rhinos Rift
« Reply #67 on: April 17, 2007, 02:21:00 pm »
Good question. Ask the ACB.

Offline menacer

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Re: Danger - Rhinos Rift
« Reply #68 on: April 17, 2007, 02:47:17 pm »
If a party were going continental and wish to practice on spits,
 if they wished to do the right hand route in Rhino Rift,
would that be allowed?

My very hazardous guess would be "yes"...graham wrote..
Quote
I shall therefore arrange for a replacement padlock to go on the cave tomorrow morning. Anyone with a strong wish to go down the cave during
this period would then need to come to me for a key and a detailed description of the problems inherent in undertaking a trip.

Obviously I wouldnt dare presume grahams thoughts on this one,(but i neednt worry because he would correct my error within minutes of me posting this  ;) ) ,but the way I interpreted the above statement, was, that there is slight room for manouvre with regards to access to Rhino.

Whats the ACB??

Chaos, panic, and disorder - my work here is done.

Offline Elaine

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Re: Danger - Rhinos Rift
« Reply #69 on: April 17, 2007, 03:46:51 pm »
It is the 'Amazing Christopher B'.
Wot tiny writing!

Offline menacer

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Re: Danger - Rhinos Rift
« Reply #70 on: April 17, 2007, 03:50:09 pm »
It is the 'Amazing Christopher B'.

 ::) Priceless.....

Anne you're lovely  :tease:
Chaos, panic, and disorder - my work here is done.

Offline graham

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Re: Danger - Rhinos Rift
« Reply #71 on: April 17, 2007, 04:29:46 pm »
If a party were going continental and wish to practice on spits,
 if they wished to do the right hand route in Rhino Rift,
would that be allowed?

My very hazardous guess would be "yes"...graham wrote..
Quote
I shall therefore arrange for a replacement padlock to go on the cave tomorrow morning. Anyone with a strong wish to go down the cave during
this period would then need to come to me for a key and a detailed description of the problems inherent in undertaking a trip.

Obviously I wouldnt dare presume grahams thoughts on this one,(but i neednt worry because he would correct my error within minutes of me posting this  ;) ) ,but the way I interpreted the above statement, was, that there is slight room for manouvre with regards to access to Rhino.

Whats the ACB??



My thoughts on this are not particularly apposite as all decisions were made at the CCC Ltd AGM last weekend. Ask your club rep.
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Offline whitelackington

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Re: Danger - Rhinos Rift
« Reply #72 on: April 19, 2007, 09:24:58 am »
If a party were going continental and wish to practice on spits,
 if they wished to do the right hand route in Rhino Rift,
would that be allowed?

My very hazardous guess would be "yes"...graham wrote..
Quote
I shall therefore arrange for a replacement padlock to go on the cave tomorrow morning. Anyone with a strong wish to go down the cave during
this period would then need to come to me for a key and a detailed description of the problems inherent in undertaking a trip.

Obviously I wouldnt dare presume grahams thoughts on this one,(but i neednt worry because he would correct my error within minutes of me posting this  ;) ) ,but the way I interpreted the above statement, was, that there is slight room for manouvre with regards to access to Rhino.

Whats the ACB??



My thoughts on this are not particularly apposite as all decisions were made at the CCC Ltd AGM last weekend. Ask your club rep.

Rhino Rift is "The Main S.R.T. Cave on Mendip", the one most often used.
The Right Hand Route all bolted with spits is The Place on Mendip to train if you wish to go abroad and experience 8mm bolts.

When can we, the caving community be allowed to use
The Right hand route in Rhino Rift :-\

Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: Danger - Rhinos Rift
« Reply #73 on: April 19, 2007, 09:29:55 am »
Have you asked for a key as advised by Graham?

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: Danger - Rhinos Rift
« Reply #74 on: April 19, 2007, 09:33:21 am »
The Right Hand Route should prove interesting to rig, given that there isn't an in situ deviation to avoid the major rub point on the first pitch - you may need a VERY tall person (or someone with a bit of bamboo!) to reach across and put one in.