Author Topic: Bad Air in Long Rake Mine, Bradwell Moor  (Read 23241 times)

Offline nickwilliams

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Re: Discussion Topic: Bad Air in Long Rake Mine, Bradwell Moor
« Reply #50 on: June 04, 2008, 05:36:59 pm »
Sam,

With all due respect, I think you grossly underestimate the danger of the situation, and the logistics of safely overcoming those dangers. This is not a a set of circumstances which should be responded to with the cave digger's usual 'back of a fag packet' approach - there has already been one near miss and it serves only to prove that it's not safe to tackle this without a considerable amount of care and fore-thought, as well as the correct equipment.

Bob and dl have already pointed out that those in the know do not consider SCUBA diving equipment to be safe for use in bad air locations.  I know that others on this board have used BA and in a relatively open location with no significant verticals to negotiate, the use of a band mask BA set probably doesn't present too many problems. Factor into that the need to negotiate over 100ft of rope work, as is the case in Long Rake, and the whole scenario becomes radically different.

Nick.
"Economics is simply the branch of sociology that deals with people trading items and the fact that they use more numbers does not make it anymore of a science."

Offline paul

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Re: Discussion Topic: Bad Air in Long Rake Mine, Bradwell Moor
« Reply #51 on: June 04, 2008, 06:14:54 pm »
As Nick says, there seems obvious confusion here between the effects of Carbon Monoxide (CO) and Carbon Dioxide (CO2).

Excess CO2 ("bad air" if you like) effectively lessens the concentration of available Oxygen (but also has other effects) so you get the classic symptoms: nausea, lethargy, headache. If you begin to feel symptoms then providing the CO2 levels are not too high, you can hopefully evacuate the area and recover with matbe a bad headache. With higher levels of CO2 you may fall unconscious and also possibly die.

CO combines irreversibly with the Haemoglobin in the blood. By the time you begin feeling any symptoms, it may be too late and YOU WILL PROBABLY DIE (which is why car exhaust fumes are dangerous for example and why the precursor to Natural Gas, Coal Gas, which had high levels of CO, were favourite methods of committing suicide). These cavers were very lucky.

Let those who are experts in dealing with this sort of thing investigate. Stay away until there has been an "all clear".





 
I'm not a complete idiot: some parts are missing!

Offline SamT

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Re: Discussion Topic: Bad Air in Long Rake Mine, Bradwell Moor
« Reply #52 on: June 04, 2008, 10:06:23 pm »
 :chair:

OK OK - I stand corrected. I wasn't suggesting a fag packet approach, and I wasn't suggesting that folks just suck it and see (sic). I admit, until now I was ingnorant about the risk presented by CO (In that its effects are not simply eversed by getting back to fresh air).

Quote
a small waist mounted pony would surely suffice.


I asked a question and its been answered,

Quote
After the event they did some research and it appeared that the use of a standard diving reg above water was not considered adequate protection and that only a full positive pressure BA set was regarded as suitable for use in this type of situation.

so it appears diving gear is a no no.

I fully endorse a professional approach to this, that Im sure DCA/BCA will follow.

Is Jim Lister worth contacting about this, hasn't he just been on some sort of confined space rescue course with the Fire Brigade.

As to the cause,

I can only think of 3 ways in which the CO got there,
Airbourne - carried in on a draught,
Waterbourn - released from the stream way at the bottom of the mine
insitu - i.e the diggers unearthed something that was already present - and released the gas.

My concern is that if its waterbourn - could it affect bagshawe/other caves in the locale

Offline underground

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Re: Discussion Topic: Bad Air in Long Rake Mine, Bradwell Moor
« Reply #53 on: June 04, 2008, 10:19:45 pm »

I can only think of 3 ways in which the CO got there,

Waterbourn - released from the stream way at the bottom of the mine

My concern is that if its waterbourn - could it affect bagshawe/other caves in the locale


If CO was soluble enough in water sufficient to cause toxicity, it'd be causing many problems all over the place. CO2 is magnitudes more soluble and plentiful in air, but we don't suffer the effects in the wet...

Online braveduck

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Re: Discussion Topic: Bad Air in Long Rake Mine, Bradwell Moor
« Reply #54 on: June 04, 2008, 11:19:24 pm »
Years ago when Moss Rake was been worked in a big way the holes being produced were being filled with rubbish in a big way.
I remember seeing large amounts of plastic waste waiting to be buldozed down a shaft,apparantly this waste had come from a plastic factory in Bradwell.
If PVC and Polystirene are in contact for a long the PVC sort of melts and generates CO.All the electric cables in my loft have melted because of poly cable clips
This problem was discoverd in modern submarines a few years back!
Is it possable the diggers have opened up an old pocket of trapped gas due to tipping on Moss Rake?

Online LarryFatcat

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Re: Discussion Topic: Bad Air in Long Rake Mine, Bradwell Moor
« Reply #55 on: June 05, 2008, 01:20:18 am »
The strange thing for me is that people have been going down there recreationally for at least 40yrs and this is the first report of any problem.

This is why I would like to know more about the dig?

Offline Rob

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Re: Discussion Topic: Bad Air in Long Rake Mine, Bradwell Moor
« Reply #56 on: June 05, 2008, 02:04:22 pm »
What would be very useful would be to know the last team down there before this incident. Maybe it was only a few weeks ago!

Last time i went down there was Summer 2007. I noticed no bad air and went too the very bottom and back. Anyone been there more recently?
The end is where we start....

Online LarryFatcat

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Re: Bad Air in Long Rake Mine, Bradwell Moor
« Reply #57 on: June 06, 2008, 10:55:33 pm »
A little more info on the incident. 


The group did not descend the 'Crewe' fifth pitch.

They first experienced problems in the area furthest east on the survey. (not shown in the crewe topo)

They found 'used pots and pans and blackened timbers as well as what appeared to be a hearth in the vicinity'.

The DCA 'Secretary of the Explosives User Group', is investigating.


Offline Jenny P

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Re: Bad Air in Long Rake Mine, Bradwell Moor
« Reply #58 on: June 06, 2008, 11:29:50 pm »
Sorry Larry, but you have misunderstood in saying:  "The DCA 'Secretary of the Explosives User Group', is investigating."

I, as DCA Secretary, replied to an email you sent me, in which I simply said that the Secretary of the Explosives User Group was investigating.  The Explosives User Group is nothing to do with DCA per se.

The original warning I put out on behalf of DCA was to try to ensure that this was taken very seriously - CO poisoning is deadly.  I am satisfied that the correct course is being followed and any investigation must proceed with great care and cannot be rushed or, as someone else has said, "be subject to the "fag packet" approach. 

Online LarryFatcat

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Re: Bad Air in Long Rake Mine, Bradwell Moor
« Reply #59 on: June 06, 2008, 11:34:33 pm »
OK, just assumed it was part of the DCA in the context.  My fault.

Online LarryFatcat

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Re: Bad Air in Long Rake Mine, Bradwell Moor
« Reply #60 on: June 06, 2008, 11:41:12 pm »
A little more info on the incident. 


The group did not descend the 'Crewe' fifth pitch.

They first experienced problems in the area furthest east on the survey. (not shown in the crewe topo)

They found 'used pots and pans and blackened timbers as well as what appeared to be a hearth in the vicinity'.

The 'Secretary of the Explosives User Group', is investigating.

Offline nickwilliams

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Re: Bad Air in Long Rake Mine, Bradwell Moor
« Reply #61 on: June 07, 2008, 09:57:54 am »

The 'Secretary of the Explosives User Group', is investigating.


That's me!

Nick.
"Economics is simply the branch of sociology that deals with people trading items and the fact that they use more numbers does not make it anymore of a science."

Online LarryFatcat

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Re: Bad Air in Long Rake Mine, Bradwell Moor
« Reply #62 on: June 07, 2008, 09:07:39 pm »

The 'Secretary of the Explosives User Group', is investigating.


That's me!

Nick.
I know, I found out today, you seem suprised?

Offline nickwilliams

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Re: Bad Air in Long Rake Mine, Bradwell Moor
« Reply #63 on: February 17, 2010, 06:24:19 pm »
Time for an update.

Although no great public fuss has been made about it, several people have been working quietly behind the scenes to try to resolve this problem. We've got a reasonable idea of the activities of the quarries local to the site and have also mapped out the known rakes local to the shaft with a view to identifying the likelihood that gas could cross from the quarries to the shaft.

Recently, a program of regular gas tests has been undertaken with a meter lowered down the shaft from the surface. It's too early to go public with the results (actually, I've not seen any numbers yet) but these tests give an indication that measurements further into the mine are likely to be the next step.

In the meanwhile, the landowner, Mr Hadfield, has made it clear in no uncertain terms that he does not want anyone to enter the mine and it should be considered that there is no access to the mine until further notice. Please respect these wishes - local people working on behalf of DCA are doing their best to deal with the problem and while Long Rake is an important site, it's not so important that it is worth jeopardising landowner relations (or, indeed, your life) for.

There are plenty of other places in the near vicinity which will provide a sporting SRT trip, and there are other caves on Mr Hadfield's (and his neighbours') property which it would be stupid to lose access to simply because of a moment's impatience.

Nick.
"Economics is simply the branch of sociology that deals with people trading items and the fact that they use more numbers does not make it anymore of a science."

Offline Brains

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Re: Bad Air in Long Rake Mine, Bradwell Moor
« Reply #64 on: January 05, 2011, 07:29:32 pm »
Any update on this that can be made public?
Even if access were deemed healthy at the moment we are getting into the closed season for lambing soon.
No pressure, just been browsing CoPD and wanting to revisit old favourites and seek out new places  ;D

Offline nickwilliams

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Re: Bad Air in Long Rake Mine, Bradwell Moor
« Reply #65 on: January 05, 2011, 11:15:48 pm »
Unfortunately no useful progress. The landowner has recently made it clear that they see no advantage to themselves (and some significant disadvantages) in permitting access to mines on their land so Long Rake Founder will remain closed for the foreseeable future.

That's not to say that local DCA representatives are going to simply forget about it forever, but there is unlikely to be any change in the situation in the near future.

Nick
"Economics is simply the branch of sociology that deals with people trading items and the fact that they use more numbers does not make it anymore of a science."

Offline jasonbirder

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Re: Bad Air in Long Rake Mine, Bradwell Moor
« Reply #66 on: January 06, 2011, 04:08:18 pm »
Thats Bad News....been looking forward to Long Rake re-opening...as its the one "major" Peak trip i've never done...
Was anything ever resolved re the CO issue from the quarries...
And is it fair to read it that even if thats put to bed then there's unlikely to be a change short-medium term?
Is it related to the younger Mr Hadfield being more involed in the decision making process now...is he less caver-friendly?

Does the above also still apply to Bird Mine on the other side of the road?
Cheers!

Offline nigel n

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Re: Bad Air in Long Rake Mine, Bradwell Moor
« Reply #67 on: January 06, 2011, 04:57:04 pm »
Bird mine belongs to the chap at Paradise farm on the way down to Bradwell.  He is friendly and so long as you see him first there should be no problem.

Offline jasonbirder

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Re: Bad Air in Long Rake Mine, Bradwell Moor
« Reply #68 on: January 06, 2011, 05:11:31 pm »
Great cheers!

Offline nickwilliams

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Re: Bad Air in Long Rake Mine, Bradwell Moor
« Reply #69 on: January 06, 2011, 05:17:49 pm »
Jason,

I'm happy to answer your questions but I'd prefer not to discuss the details of this further on an open forum. PM me with an e-mail address if you want more information.

Regards

Nick. 
"Economics is simply the branch of sociology that deals with people trading items and the fact that they use more numbers does not make it anymore of a science."

Offline cavermark

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Re: Bad Air in Long Rake Mine, Bradwell Moor
« Reply #70 on: November 05, 2012, 09:44:21 am »
Did the monitoring continue, or has access negotiation stopped at present? If so, is it time to reopen negotiations yet?

Offline Ralph

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Re: Bad Air in Long Rake Mine, Bradwell Moor
« Reply #71 on: November 05, 2012, 09:53:20 am »
Source of CO. There is also the possibility that the cavers affected already had moderate levels of CO in their blood before they entered the system. (Car exhaust, gas fire, central heating). The descent into Long Rake is easy as you might expect but once a considerable effort is required (getting out) it would make a big difference.
Not wishing to make a big issue out of this or even suggest this is an explanation, just yet another possibility.

Offline jasonbirder

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Re: Bad Air in Long Rake Mine, Bradwell Moor
« Reply #72 on: November 05, 2012, 10:51:41 am »
I'll second that question...interested in any update on the situation at Long Rake/New Venture/Bird etc...

Offline AR

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Re: Bad Air in Long Rake Mine, Bradwell Moor
« Reply #73 on: November 05, 2012, 01:01:19 pm »
To the best of my knowledge the situation with Long Rake Founder is unchanged. New Venture belongs to Lafarge and they would be very unlikley to give permission for access, likewise I believe they own the workings at Bird by dint of having the mineral rights. They are also aware of discussion of previous visits to these on UKC, which led a consultant working for them to describe this site as " dedicated to extreme (and usually unauthorised) exploration "....
Dirty old mines need love too....

Offline jasonbirder

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Re: Bad Air in Long Rake Mine, Bradwell Moor
« Reply #74 on: November 05, 2012, 01:10:52 pm »
Thought the guy at the Farm going back down the hill to Bradwell controlled access to Bird Mine? And he was always pretty caver friendly if memory serves me correctly...

 

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