Author Topic: Caving and access land...  (Read 3745 times)

Offline Anon

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Caving and access land...
« on: March 26, 2005, 09:47:39 pm »
As we all know England and Wales is getting (/has got) access land (Scotland have faired considerably better having a superb open-access agreement!) - the question has no doubt been aired numerable times at numerbale different points, but something occured to me today regarding "closed seasons".

In the Dales places like Leck, Fountains, Allotment all have these closed seasons - come May the Dales will gain this open-access land - is it right that we should retain our closed seasons under this new access climate?

Bearing in mind that the land where the caves exist is more than likely going to be access land (my local hill region of Bowland is all grouse moorland and mostly all open for access!) then is it right we should continue to be excluded from this land for a number of months per year?

Under the agreement - AFAIK land can be closed for a maximum of 28 days a year - hardly 3 months+ that caving rights are removed... Considering an average caver follows a single path to a cave whereas a walker can wander at will surely our sport impacts less on the land and that should count for something......

From what I've seen dogs can be excluded completely for 5 years(as they have in Bowland in certain places) but must be kept on short lead between 1st Mar-31st Jul for livestock matters.. That means open-access is still available between those dates..

Your thoughts and views on this matter?

diggerdog adam

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Caving and access land...
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2005, 10:04:46 pm »
Good post dunc,
But i can see it from both sides working and living on a country estate
In my case at work we hold regular shoots through out the season it would be a disater if some with a dog was to wander through a area that had been "dogged in" the day before that area was to be driven.

This could totally ruin a good days birds for the line of guns (which pay large amounts of cash) as any bird that flys on to land becomes the property of the land owner. On our estate there will be days closed and it will be policed by game keepers you have been warned !

In many cases im sure that in time we will see signs (Possible homemade) asking people to keep away from certain bits of land at certain times and i would ask everyone to respect this as one of the rules is that "Crow open access" must not disrupt any ones lively hood

Maybe there will be a addtion to the country side code

Do i really need to be on this land ?

diggerdog adam

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« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2005, 10:21:09 pm »
**Pls note**

Dont have a go about blood sports it will fall on deaf ears !

Offline Anon

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Caving and access land...
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2005, 10:23:54 pm »
Just found out some extra info regarding access and "discretionary restrictions (aka 28 days allowance)"

The 28days can be used on any day any reason but not on :
Bank holidays, Christmas Day or Good Friday.
Saturdays between 1st June and 11th August.
Sundays between 1st June and 30th September.
More than 4 weekend days (Sat or Sun) in any calendar year.

And on the subject of natural features (potholes are actually mentioned for once!) that quote CROW-Land-managers-restriction-PDF "you are not liable for any injuries that may arise from natural landscape features while the CROW access righst are in force" - and where the risk is obvious landowners aren't expected to warn people...

Just adds more weight to better access IMHO...............  :roll:  :)

Offline underground

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Caving and access land...
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2005, 10:51:17 pm »
Dunc, can you quote the source of that info.?,  It's interesting WRT knowledge of the act etc and could be quite useful if backed up I reckon...

My view is undecided: one the one hand there are farmers, such as those in the Peak who not only allow access to the caves on their land but actively help out cavers by lending their yard for car parking, etc. These are the ones making a livelihood.

On the other, there are the rich estate owners, who may provide a bit of local employment, but ultimately are rich folk lining their pockets from the coin of other rich folk, for a bit of unsporting game shooting, which if we're honest is like shooting fish in a barrel- the term 'dogged in' says it all really.

I  hate landowners like that, I guess that's what I'm thinking here. I know there are arguments such as those banged out by the countryside alliance for quasi-conservation, but really, all that large scale land ownership serves is the bottom line of the land owner, and always has since the feudal system.

Dunc, no it is not right we should be excluded from the land. If agreements can be made mutually then fair enough. Otherwise, long live CRoW.

Offline Anon

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Caving and access land...
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2005, 09:51:45 am »
Open Access website - this is the site for land owners, which is where the info came from.. Most of the dates, info etc I got from the restricting access page or pdf.

Quote
My view is undecided: one the one hand there are farmers, such as those in the Peak who not only allow access to the caves on their land but actively help out cavers by lending their yard for car parking, etc
I don't have a problem with that, I think its good that some farmers are helpful in that sense and I don't mind paying a small fee for the pleasure of having better security for the car!

Offline SamT

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Caving and access land...
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2005, 10:26:16 am »
We are all entitled to our opinions UG but I guess that fell on deaf ears.

Part of the problem is that if the land is owned by someone, then they have every right to do what they like on that land. You may not agree with what they do but theres nowt you can do about it.
If you want to gain access to that land they you've got to play by their rules.

Thats why the people who have spent the last few years (bet its about 10) negociating the crow act deserve medals.

 I am unaware of these 'closed  seasons' in yorkshire (dont get up there that much)
Who enforces these restrictions, why were they put in place to begin with. Who owns the land that they apply to.

The only thing like that in the peak is 'Lambing' season. which affects a few caves. - JH, Rowter, and Longrake are the only ones I can think of.
lambing has never held much weight as a reason to deny access IMHO. The farmers dont deny access to the thousands of walkers that walk straight accross most of their land on public footpaths during 'lambing', or the off roaders that tear accross the green lanes by the fields yet they feel it necessary to stop the half dozen or so cavers from visiting one mineshaft in one of their fields.
Are sheep so terrified of humans that they miscarry if disturbed.
Never quite understood that one.

Offline underground

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« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2005, 11:57:15 am »
Quote from: "Dunc"
I don't have a problem with that, I think its good that some farmers are helpful in that sense and I don't mind paying a small fee for the pleasure of having better security for the car!


No, neither do I- it's fantastic and should be applauded.

Quote from: "SamT"
We are all entitled to our opinions UG but I guess that fell on deaf ears.


I don't quite get what you mean by that Sam. I agree to the fact that rules are rules, and it's just the way things are. What I don't agree with is the unbalanced nature of such ownership and the fact that game shooting places an elitist restriction on a huge natural amenity.

Offline graham

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« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2005, 03:04:08 pm »
Quote from: "underground"
 ... What I don't agree with is the unbalanced nature of such ownership and the fact that game shooting places an elitist restriction on a huge natural amenity.


Bloody Hell the man's some sort of damned communist  :wink:
Caving is for Life not just for Christmas

Offline Anon

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Caving and access land...
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2005, 05:42:26 pm »
Quote from: "SamT"
Are sheep so terrified of humans that they miscarry if disturbed

If I was a sheep and saw some of the people on this forum walking towards me I'd be worried!!  :lol:

Quote from: "SamT"
I am unaware of these 'closed seasons' in yorkshire (dont get up there that much)  Who enforces these restrictions, why were they put in place to begin with. Who owns the land that they apply to.
Based on info from cncc handbook - don't know how upto date it is..
Leck Fell (inc Pip etc) is closed Apr, May, Jun. Mongo Gill is May, Jun, Jul. Birks Fell, Strans Gill, Yockenthwaite are Nov to mid Apr. Allotment is Apr-Sep. Fountains Fell is Nov to 2nd weekend in May.

Not sure how they came about or for what reason (anyone know?)... With some if not most of the above being on access land and in theory open all year for walkers it would seem reasonable for cavers to have year round access too..

Quote from: "diggerdog adam"
In many cases im sure that in time we will see signs (Possible homemade) asking people to keep away from certain bits of land at certain times and i would ask everyone to respect this as one of the rules is that "Crow open access" must not disrupt any ones lively hood
Of some of the above mentioned fells permits can be withdrawn for shooting purposes as it stands - so nothing would change in that area with access land allowed to be closed for upto 28 days a year for such purposes. Its basically the same as access land pre-crow in Bowland - land could be closed for such 'sport'.

Offline SamT

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« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2005, 07:47:15 pm »
Quote
SamT wrote:
We are all entitled to our opinions UG but I guess that fell on deaf ears.


I don't quite get what you mean by that Sam.


Well - the post is about why - with the new crow act etc - should certain areas of the yorkshire dales. DDA added his view with regards to why walkers may sometimes be asked not to walk on land that is being prepared for a shoot and pointed out that he didn't want this turning into a post about blood sports.

Anhows - returning to the main topic - which is...

Why are vast areas of the yorkshire dales - closed to cavers for months on end.

Im presuming Leck Fell - Allotment et al are all going to be subject to the Crow act and become access land.

Is it worth raising with the BCA.

diggerdog adam

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Caving and access land...
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2005, 08:57:08 am »
I would like to get one thing straight i am in argreement to open access

But the main point that i was trying to get across regaurding game/shooting would be:- On certain days access to some land will have to be closed manly for saftey reasons ie a line of 10 loaded guns with the possibllty of people walking through the drive is totally unacceptable.

But the other point would be that quite often many hours work have to take place lets say for "preperation" for the following shoot now more than likely this land on these days would be open to the public as such so what i was asking would be if any one was to notice any signs asking to avoid the area in my opioin theese should be adeared to as best as possible

Look at it a different way lets say you had spent 2 days at work sorting out work for a event on the following sat and someone came in and lost all your paper work trashed your filling system etc  and it meant that you havd to get up at 4 am on the sat morn to sort it out im sure you would not be happy

I hope you can all see where im coming from on hear Pls note the land that we are discusing has no caves on it but plently of walkers

Offline Anon

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Caving and access land...
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2005, 08:14:29 pm »
Quote
Im presuming Leck Fell - Allotment et al are all going to be subject to the Crow act and become access land

According to the provisional maps - yes.

Quote
Is it worth raising with the BCA.

Perhaps it may well be worth a try.. It seems like most people agree that closed seasons are a bit strange and that perhaps now is the time to push for different access agreements to be drawn up..