Standardisation of some caving statements eg. i can do srt

[Burt]

I can do brain surgery.......






...but I'm crap at it.

 

[bograt]

BCA funding is available and here in Derbyshire we have an excellent DCA training officer who manages to source it for subsidised training for club training officers, no official certificate, just peace of mind that someone in the club is recognised as proficient to oversee novice training.
Those of you in other areas should approach your regional training officer, its what they are there for.
I'm of the old school (VERY old school) that says when familiarising yourself with new caving comrades start small; P8, Giants, Gautries, Carleswark etc. and gradually work up until you feel confident with them enough to bounce them down Eldon, Beza or Titan.

 

[hrock]

i think people are getting too twitchy about being charged for this training. all i was after is an agreed goal at witch point you can say i can do it. naturally that is going to come with a lot of variation i ability and speed even so unless we put time limits on all the maneuvers (don't even bother discussing the last bit of that please)

yes you could extend these definitions to other things but i thing the reason people care so much about the srt thing is be for long you will be doing it on your own even if there is some one 50m above you what use is that they cant talk you though it.

i merely think that as a new caver having a list of things to learn is useful (of the people i have met that could not do things often they could not do them cos they had never thought of the possibility of needing to pass a knot or change over or hang only on the rope on a traverse) 

also i think it would be of even more use to those teaching srt. Those who have done this lots all have there ways but often in uni clubs the people teaching are very new to it all too. so is know harm in haveing a list to work though it saves forgetting any thing

i dont see this would change the club system of training at all if any one need training there are always cavers willing to help just ask if there is no one in your club ask out side you club they will still be happy to help.

what i think threatens uni caving especially is silly the effect one or two people could have ether for there benefit or just by mistake.

recently there was a uni trip that met with a cic and his group later the cic contcted the uni to say that they were being unsafe and followed it by offering to sell the uni some of his training.  by all meens if you see a club being unsafe contact them first if they do not seem to want to know then may be take it to the uni or CHECC but dont then sick your business card in with it. it does not take much to get a uni club shut and this is probably the quickest so i would take it as a shore sine that there are some cic's that really are just in it for the money and don't care about the sport at all.

 

[Les W]

i think people are getting too twitchy about being charged for this training.

I don't think it is being charged that is the main issue here.
I believe the main issue is one of amateur certification. There are a lot of cavers that believe that professionals are the thin end of the wedge and that ultimately certification will be required by landowners, government and insurance companies before anybody is allowed to go caving. This is why your debate has elicited such a polarised response.

I don't know if it is at all likely but in a lot of people's minds it is, and they will fight tooth and nail to prevent it.
A certain well known Mendip caver often says that " the proof of NCA's/BCA's success is that of keeping "oficialdom at arms length so that grass roots cavers can go caving virtually unhindered by regulation and controlls"

i merely think that as a new caver having a list of things to learn is useful (of the people i have met that could not do things often they could not do them cos they had never thought of the possibility of needing to pass a knot or change over or hang only on the rope on a traverse) 

also i think it would be of even more use to those teaching srt. Those who have done this lots all have there ways but often in uni clubs the people teaching are very new to it all too. so is know harm in haveing a list to work though it saves forgetting any thing

I don't see this as a bad thing at all. in fact I believe some years ago the Training committee was asked to come up with some Club/amateur training material, not sure if they ever did though...  :-\
Probably worth rattling their cage, why not get the CHECC rep to come up with a proposal for the BCA AGM in June...
You never know.

 

[graham]

As I said earlier in this thread, it's all about srt isn't it, 'cos that's a skill which is far more amenable to curriculum based teaching than any other in caving. However, Amy's trip thread demonstrates that what we consider to be the safe way to do it is not a view that is shared universally. And I am certainly not going to say the 'mercain way is wrong having descended pits using very similar techniques long ago in my youth.

The slippery slope argument about certification may well be pooh-poohed by some, but it has been shown quite clearly in recent years that some universities, especially, are frightened by outdoor pursuits that they do not understand and will take the line of least resistance - close 'em down - rather than try and develop an understanding. It is no coincidence that the strongest and most stable uni clubs are those where there remains strong graduate contact with the younger club not only so that skills can be transferred on but also so that deeper and more stable links can be built with student union and university safety officers.

Had the CiC mentioned by hrock contacted our university instead of our club then there would have been hell to pay, both formally via complaints to BCA and doubtless 'informally' as well. There is a quite incredible degree of arrogance displayed by some CiCs sometimes. By no means all, don't get me wrong some are excellent cavers and great teachers, but paper qualifications or no, their quality is as variable as that of any other group of cavers.

 

[cap n chris]

i think people are getting too twitchy about being charged for this training. all i was after is an agreed goal at witch point you can say i can do it.

Off the top of my head here's a list of stuff which would make me consider my fellow caver was SRT competent:-

Fundamental SRT techniques
Kitting up efficiently and purposefully with correct sequence of gear on Omni/D-maillon and critical adjustment lengths of footloop and cowstails
Traversing/safe cowstails use
Descent/locking off (hard/soft)
Demonstrating controlled descent and efficient ascent
Efficient and effective pitch head manoeuvring
Passing rebelay on ascent/descent (inc. free-hanging, with strategies to facilitate efficient retrieval of cowstail)
Passing deviation on ascent/descent
Knot passing
Changeover from ascent to descent and vice versa
Reverse prussiking
Use of Stop on varying diameter (and age) rope 8mm - 11mm

Niceties:-
Use and understanding of limitations/benefits of Pantin
Simple self rescue strategies
Lucky Rabbit's foot still retaining most of its fur

 

[TheBitterEnd]

... correct sequence of gear on Omni/D-maillon and critical adjustment lengths of footloop and cowstails ...

However, Amy's trip thread demonstrates that what we consider to be the safe way to do it is not a view that is shared universally.

 

[cap n chris]

Sorry, I don't understand the link, if there is one. Are you suggesting there's a correspondence between these two selected quotes? I rarely (if ever) use the words "safe" and "caving" together as one is highly subjective while the other is caving.

Addendum: whoops, my bad. I don't mean subjective! I think I mean objective! i.e. the word "safe" is an absolute term defining something as one wherein no one would come to harm. Clearly people come to harm while caving as it is hazardous; hence caving cannot be termed safe and there is probably no such thing as safe caving; there might be degrees of reassurance such that you could justifably state that your aim is to make caving safer and there are arguably safer ways of doing things but clearly it would be unwise in the extreme to say that caving is safe.

 

[Benfool]

He is pointing out that arrangment of kit on the D maillon and footloop, safety, cowstail length is not a universally agreed thing and some people set up their gear differently.

I for one, do not put my safety on my D maillon....

B

 

[ogof addict]

There are quite a few different arrangements, as long as your way is safe and it suits you, fine. And you know why you have it your way. This is different from having kit put on randomly, not really understanding why stuff goes where

 

[hrock]

A certain well known Mendip caver often says that " the proof of NCA's/BCA's success is that of keeping "oficialdom at arms length so that grass roots cavers can go caving virtually unhindered by regulation and controlls"

and a good job they do do

but when the shit hits the fan with another uni club i think they would find them selves in the same situation as suss did a fue years back and we had to define all are caving activities, right good practices Gide lines, define all the terms used, list esentual skils every one needs to be a ...... this was a mamoth job and with out a lot of help we would not have been able to carry on. one of the things that the uni kept saying is what does the governing body say about this. and the anserw i found at the time was nothing so i had to write it and get the bca to look at it and say they thought it sounded safe enough

then it went to the uni safty rep who refuest to exept that the mot dangerous thing we did was driving to caves so he made me change the risk assesment (what a ****) but thats another story.

so i can see both sides to this on one hand i like to go caveing and be given freedom.

but on the other if there were a national set of good practices guide lines it be comes easyer for a uni club to say "we do what the governing body says we should" tricky.

Fundamental SRT techniques
Kitting up efficiently and purposefully with correct sequence of gear on Omni/D-maillon and critical adjustment lengths of footloop and cowstails
Traversing/safe cowstails use
Descent/locking off (hard/soft)
Demonstrating controlled descent and efficient ascent
Efficient and effective pitch head manoeuvring
Passing rebelay on ascent/descent (inc. free-hanging, with strategies to facilitate efficient retrieval of cowstail)
Passing deviation on ascent/descent
Knot passing
Changeover from ascent to descent and vice versa
Reverse prussiking
Use of Stop on varying diameter (and age) rope 8mm - 11mm

Niceties:-
Use and understanding of limitations/benefits of Pantin
Simple self rescue strategies
Lucky Rabbit's foot still retaining most of its fur

sequence on D malion cant be put in as there are different ways that sute different people and maneuvers
but i think being able to put a kit together in such a way that you can do the moneuvers safely might be a better phrase

all maneuvers should be able to be done hanging (i think this is the best way to teach it as then its so easy in a cave

i dont think you should put the name of any brand of desender in just have a knolage of what is availible and use it safely

a foot jammer is your choice not esentual.

simple rescue this is another can of worms

personaly i realy dont like the fact that lost of people think this means going up or down the rope and getting them off it (snatch rescue ) this is the hardest most dangerous, difficult rescue to do the only reason i tech people it is so they see just how easy all the things i have torth them first were and they dont bother trying it under ground.

i think if you were to write the lists rescue at any level is the next step in str (athought that is not the same for ladder use were it need consideration from the start) 

 

[cap n chris]

Self rescue, not rescuing others. There is a distinction.  :read:

list is (as outlined) a summary of things which would result in me considering someone SRT competent if they were able to demonstrate effectively. I might consider them SRT competent at a lesser level, depending on the trip, natch.

 

[hrock]

in my mind self rescue is just doing srt and not needing to be rescued.
rescue is when you move some one else along the rope safley with out it being all there effort.

weather there in your group or not or you have gone into the cave to get them with lots of kit makes very little differers to how you rescue some one the big deference is that most rescue teems use 2 independent systems for rope rescue (lots of kit and loads of people getting in the way its got to be safer!)

but what you do with the ropes is all prity much the same so why the distinction. 

its a great game to play next time you training teach breaking in to a tight rope and halling up with all the kit you want, then once they have got that just keep takeing bits away till your left with your srt kit only and what a shock given one or 2 crabs spare you can still do it all and i cave on a rack.

i have also noticed that the people who love to carry some shiny bits of rescue kit all the time are often not very good at using it and might be better off carrying a small cudderly toy for comfort  (much nicer when you end up lieing on it in some crall)

 

[bat]

i have also noticed that the people who love to carry some shiny bits of rescue kit all the time are often not very good at using it and might be better off carrying a small cudderly toy for comfort  (much nicer when you end up lieing on it in some crall)

Isn't that the rabbit's foot cap 'n chris has already listed

sorry just being silly

 

[Pitlamp]

I don't know who that "well known Mendip caver" is that you allude to Les but I share his/her view and (as I've often said) I'm extremely grateful to the sort of people who volunteer their valuable time towards achieving that goal. I count you as one of them.

 

[Les W]

but on the other if there were a national set of good practices guide lines it be comes easyer for a uni club to say "we do what the governing body says we should" tricky.

This would then become the "standard" and any deviation (pun intended  ) from it would be seized upon by the expert witness for the prosecution...

I don't discount your ideas, in fact, quite the oposite. I think it could be a very useful aid for uni groups, novices and even trainers. It is something I think BCA should be looking at. However, it needs to be dealt with in such a way that we don't invent a big stick that others can beat us with later...  :-\

i have also noticed that the people who love to carry some shiny bits of rescue kit all the time are often not very good at using it and might be better off carrying a small cudderly toy for comfort  (much nicer when you end up lieing on it in some crall)

This has totally made my day 
I am now visualising these people, we all know some, who are now, in my mind, carrying their teddies underground...

:bow:

 

[cap n chris]

The basilica event is perhaps a bit exceptional.

Dagobert

Same Basilica, different (yet exceptional) event! ....

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d93_1332878834

 

[graham]

This would then become the "standard" and any deviation (pun intended  ) from it would be seized upon by the expert witness for the prosecution...

Absolutely, the more prescriptive we make our standards the larger the rod we make for our own backs.

 

[Amy]

At a recent-ish large scale long rescue effort in an American cave (of which I was not a part as it was another state/region entirely from mine) but having friends on the various rescue teams involved there was a lady who showed up with brandspakin' new kit asking how it went together...I do believe they found a job for her to do on the rescue that did not involve going into the cave  After all there is plenty of above-ground support staff needed in largescale rescues.

It would be an interesting point too - I am considered a competent vertical caver here, but would I be there? Examples:

- Our rigging is different, ours is perfectly safe but is definitly different method, different gear (rigging in ropepads and such) and different ropes (11mm PMI MaxWear Pit Rope is the standard, the thickest stiffest most static out there).

- As such our standard skillsets vary from yours. Example, Passing rebelays and deviations is not something I run into and as such is not something I've yet practiced. On my list, but not so applicable here so other things take the lead. Aside from standards like downclimbing and changeovers and gear failures, we do more things like tandom climbing, using pigtails, knot crossings, and working with tough lips.

- I use a single bungie ropewalker (probably soon to be doublebungie). I doubt that anyone there is going to be intimately familiar with this climbing system and as such would have to take my word I know how to use it properly.

- I use either a long frame microrack with dual hyperbars for rappeling, or a standard fullframe rack with one hyperbar and specific bars for the other 5. With your ropes being thinner and more supple the latter would likely be my choice there as providing more friction and it is more finetunely adjustable for appropriate friction. At least racks are probably used there more than ropewalkers, but  based on what I have seen thus far both are rather unlike your typical racks so again...would have to take my word for knowing how to use it.

- I dont use a cowstail, I have a second ascender called a QAS (quick attach safety) which we use instead when we need another attachment point. I have two cowstails tied though so I could bring one I suppose, and probably would because for example I want to do OFD again and that traverse along the flood escape route would have one then. Although I wouldn't wear a borrowed belt like last time, I'd just tie my own webbing seat harness once we got there, much more comfy to take a fall in LOL.

So...would I be considered srt competent over there? I don't know...Here I am. Even on cave rescue and can rig haul systems. Hope to learn pickoffs soon (no longer officially taught, want to haul or lower the patient, but still can be handy to know for small party rescue). Certainly no stranger to my own gear getting on rope no less than 6-7 times a month. And really overall what I've observed is it is more familiarity with your own gear and understanding it than anything else because only then can you efficiently and safely use it, and effectively deal with issues that come up (ex my foot ascender failing the other day!). The only way to judge this is know the person, so it's back to the trip leader knowing you or having references for you from someone they know. But either way firsthand knowledge of skill is much more helpful than a piece of paper for a course completion either way.

Wow sorry that got long! I am curious though as to if I'd be considered competent there or not.

 

[cap n chris]

Passing rebelays and deviations is not something I run into and as such is not something I've yet practiced...

...I am considered a competent vertical caver here, but would I be there?

No.