Author Topic: Memorials - research enquiry.  (Read 7459 times)

Offline darkdescender

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Re: Memorials - research enquiry.
« Reply #25 on: September 06, 2018, 09:47:30 am »
Apart from the Berger surface memorials, there is of course Jo Berger's urn down below.





Offline langcliffe

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Re: Memorials - research enquiry.
« Reply #26 on: September 06, 2018, 09:56:45 am »
Which reminds me of the rather sad inscription in the PSM - "Here Marcel Loubens spent the last days of his courageous life":


Online mch

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Re: Memorials - research enquiry.
« Reply #27 on: September 06, 2018, 10:39:51 am »
There is a plaque commemorating the late Mel Milner at the entrance to Darfar Pot, afraid that I don't have a photo.

Online Fulk

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Re: Memorials - research enquiry.
« Reply #28 on: September 06, 2018, 10:44:15 am »
Here's a picture of a memorial to three dead Hungarian cavers outside a caving hut in the Bukki Mountains:

Offline langcliffe

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Re: Memorials - research enquiry.
« Reply #29 on: September 06, 2018, 12:44:36 pm »
There's one by the entrance to Bull Pot of the Witches

That is in memory of Ian Plant who dived diving the upstream sump in 1980.

Online Emsy

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Re: Memorials - research enquiry.
« Reply #30 on: September 06, 2018, 12:49:25 pm »
Just in case this one had been missed by the researchers there's a Mossdale memorial in Ingleton in the public gardens opposite the chemist.

Online Ian Ball

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Re: Memorials - research enquiry.
« Reply #31 on: September 06, 2018, 05:37:04 pm »
Just in case this one had been missed by the researchers there's a Mossdale memorial in Ingleton in the public gardens opposite the chemist.

I didn't know that!  :thumbsup:

Offline Trogger

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Re: Memorials - research enquiry.
« Reply #32 on: September 06, 2018, 09:00:49 pm »
There used to be one at the entrance to Dale Head Pot. "In memory of Dick Taylor, Chairman Lincoln(?) Scout Caving Club, 4th May 1986."  (Piece of moss obscures one word). Have photo, will try and upload it...

Offline Jenny P

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Re: Memorials - research enquiry.
« Reply #33 on: September 07, 2018, 11:54:54 am »
There used to be one at the entrance to Dale Head Pot. "In memory of Dick Taylor, Chairman Lincoln(?) Scout Caving Club, 4th May 1986."  (Piece of moss obscures one word). Have photo, will try and upload it...

Yes, this would be Lincoln Scout Caving Club.

Offline Dickie

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Re: Memorials - research enquiry.
« Reply #34 on: September 08, 2018, 03:40:19 am »
Following the overseas line, there is of course the one at the bottom of the Lepineux Shaft at the PSM for Marcel Loubens.

There's an entire chapel at the entrance to the Spluga Della Preta, and there used to be a plaque on a ledge halfway down one of the big pitches to signify the exact spot where Marisa Bolla Castellini landed!!

A bit obsessed with death, those Italians.
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Offline Trig Gledhill

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Re: Memorials - research enquiry.
« Reply #35 on: September 08, 2018, 06:10:16 am »


Not a cave plaque for one individual, but a group of individuals: Chartist Cave - http://www.ogof.org.uk/chartists-cave.html

Here's a link to an image of the Mossdale Caverns plaque: https://www.grough.co.uk/magazine/2017/06/23/service-marks-50th-anniversary-of-mossdale-caverns-tragedy-cavings-worst-disaster

There's a plaque to Roger Solari on the approach to Terminal Sump (Sump 1) in Agen Allwedd. He lost his life in Sump 4 in June 1974 (and his remains are still there). In late March/April 1974 the cleaning lady for my floor in the Rootes Hall of Residences at the University of Warwick, who was psychic and would do the Tarot for you if you asked, told me that she had just seen the 'sign of the coffin' in my sheets, whilst making my bed . . . She said that a death was going to occur that would be significant to me, but it did not mean trouble with my forthcoming exams! Well, absolutely no one in my family or any friends I knew at the time died and so it all seemed to be a false alarm. Yet I later, after graduating, ended up editing a sailing film for BBC TV in which Michael Bentine took part. He was absolutely certain that there is more to this world than we are fully aware of and spent much time researching 'the power of the human mind', as he subsequently described to me when we were planning a series on unexplained phenomenon that he was going to present and Bruce Bedford (founder and first editor of Descent magazine) was to have written - called Mapping the Mysteries. But, Channel 4 commissioning editors were a nightmare to get anywhere with and Michael died before we could get started. But, as my involvement with the exploration of the Llangattock caves started to take off (I and Rob Parker, who I met as a result, carried diving equipment for Martyn Farr's and Rob Palmer's first dive back into Maytime in Agen Allwedd in 1981 since the 1974 incident) the significance of the date when Roger Solari died finally started to sink in. So, when the opportunity came on the Friday night to push the first Daren Cilau breakthrough in 21 years through an open hole that I'd just opened up that night, I persuaded Jock Williams that we should wait for Martyn Farr and the others who were going to come in with us the following day. And after Martyn separated from his first wife, Sally, and consequently disappeared for a while from the pushing scene in Daren, it's a significant part of why I contacted him a second time out of the blue to join in for the Welly Boy Aven trip (see below). As a result Martyn ultimately ended up completing the dive through the mountain that he'd been unable to do with Roger in 1974. Martyn exited the dive via Elm Hole - which had first been dived in the 1970s by Roger Solari and where jock Williams and I helped him to recommence diving into the mountain in 1986 (there's a picture of the three of us together in wetsuits in the Clydach Gorge on the day) . . . and I still don't know the ultimate 'meaning' of all this.

I don't know if it is still there, but there was a plaque attached to a large boulder just prior to the entrance of Eglwys Faen cave in the Craig y Cilau NNR at Llangattock, Crickhowell, South Wales, in memory of Bill Gascoine. Bill was secretary of the local cave management group for a good many years and carried out a number of significant first long-distance dye traces underground, linking various surface sinks and underground sites with resurgences in the area and South Wales in general. There doesn't appear to be a picture available online, although I have a copy of an image of the plaque taken shortly after it was placed (with permission) by local cavers.

In the case of Giles Barker, it is good to see he has a memorial in Spain and that the local people have wanted to honour his memory. I was sitting on a London Underground Northern Line train about to pull into Bank or the next station or so heading north when, in the days of having to pay 50p for the newspaper, I saw a spare copy of the Evening Standard lying on the seat facing me. I just had time to read the short 'Stop Press' items on the back page, which used to give up-to-the-minute news in the days when most news was hours old by the time it reached the printing presses. In fact, I ended up reading only one item. It was headlined: 'Caver Killed in Northern Spain' . . . I then saw the name 'Giles Barker' at the bottom. All of a sudden the train stopped at the station where I had to get off and the doors opened. Not knowing which way to turn, I quickly tore the relevant piece out of the paper before hurriedly exiting the carriage - just in time prior to the doors closing and the train departing - leaving me standing on the platform, stunned.

Giles lent me the two ropes that were used to simultaneously climb the end of Preliminary Passage (Steve Holmes and Adrian Hanson-Abbott) and Welly Boy Aven (Tony White, Martyn Farr and Dick Gledhill) in Daren Cilau in February 1985. After Steve's best lead panned out at a horrible perched boulder choke, Dick came back to acquire the two ladders and second rope we had, which ended up being used by Tony (who'd successfully scaled the second-best lead to discover Higher Things) to make the first descent into White Passage. This is a memorial to Giles which will always be there, so long as the cave continues to exist - yet the plaque erected in Spain is, also, much appreciated.

There are plenty of people who seem to want to begrudge much in the world, especially when it comes to acknowledging others who are not themselves. I think the fewer the number of plaques the better, but, where appropriate, a plaque well placed can honour the memory of someone who has played a significant part in life or made a sacrifice locally. I can't think of a better example than the plaque at Grotte de la Luire in the Vercors, France, which I descended with Rob Murgatroyd in 1990, thanks to a welcoming, joint French-Italian summer-expedition scientific exploration of the cave, to a deep dry 'sump' from which I have a couple of rounded pebbles: https://baladesenisere.wordpress.com/2014/09/15/grotte-de-la-luire/ (penultimate image on the page).



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Offline Trig Gledhill

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Re: Memorials - research enquiry.
« Reply #36 on: September 08, 2018, 06:10:44 am »
Not a cave plaque for one individual, but a group of individuals: Chartist Cave - http://www.ogof.org.uk/chartists-cave.html

Here's a link to an image of the Mossdale Caverns plaque: https://www.grough.co.uk/magazine/2017/06/23/service-marks-50th-anniversary-of-mossdale-caverns-tragedy-cavings-worst-disaster

There's a plaque to Roger Solari on the approach to Terminal Sump (Sump 1) in Agen Allwedd. He lost his life in Sump 4 in June 1974 (and his remains are still there). In late March/April 1974 the cleaning lady for my floor in the Rootes Hall of Residences at the University of Warwick, who was psychic and would do the Tarot for you if you asked, told me that she had just seen the 'sign of the coffin' in my sheets, whilst making my bed . . . She said that a death was going to occur that would be significant to me, but it did not mean trouble with my forthcoming exams! Well, absolutely no one in my family or any friends I knew at the time died and so it all seemed to be a false alarm. Yet I later, after graduating, ended up editing a sailing film for BBC TV in which Michael Bentine took part. He was absolutely certain that there is more to this world than we are fully aware of and spent much time researching 'the power of the human mind', as he subsequently described to me when we were planning a series on unexplained phenomenon that he was going to present and Bruce Bedford (founder and first editor of Descent magazine) was to have written - called Mapping the Mysteries. But, Channel 4 commissioning editors were a nightmare to get anywhere with and Michael died before we could get started. But, as my involvement with the exploration of the Llangattock caves started to take off (I and Rob Parker, who I met as a result, carried diving equipment for Martyn Farr's and Rob Palmer's first dive back into Maytime in Agen Allwedd in 1981 since the 1974 incident) the significance of the date when Roger Solari died finally started to sink in. So, when the opportunity came on the Friday night to push the first Daren Cilau breakthrough in 21 years through an open hole that I'd just opened up that night, I persuaded Jock Williams that we should wait for Martyn Farr and the others who were going to come in with us the following day. And after Martyn separated from his first wife, Sally, and consequently disappeared for a while from the pushing scene in Daren, it's a significant part of why I contacted him a second time out of the blue to join in for the Welly Boy Aven trip (see below). As a result Martyn ultimately ended up completing the dive through the mountain that he'd been unable to do with Roger in 1974. Martyn exited the dive via Elm Hole - which had first been dived in the 1970s by Roger Solari and where jock Williams and I helped him to recommence diving into the mountain in 1986 (there's a picture of the three of us together in wetsuits in the Clydach Gorge on the day) . . . and I still don't know the ultimate 'meaning' of all this.

I don't know if it is still there, but there was a plaque attached to a large boulder just prior to the entrance of Eglwys Faen cave in the Craig y Cilau NNR at Llangattock, Crickhowell, South Wales, in memory of Bill Gascoine. Bill was secretary of the local cave management group for a good many years and carried out a number of significant first long-distance dye traces underground, linking various surface sinks and underground sites with resurgences in the area and South Wales in general. There doesn't appear to be a picture available online, although I have a copy of an image of the plaque taken shortly after it was placed (with permission) by local cavers.

In the case of Giles Barker, it is good to see he has a memorial in Spain and that the local people have wanted to honour his memory. I was sitting on a London Underground Northern Line train about to pull into Bank or the next station or so heading north when, in the days of having to pay 50p for the newspaper, I saw a spare copy of the Evening Standard lying on the seat facing me. I just had time to read the short 'Stop Press' items on the back page, which used to give up-to-the-minute news in the days when most news was hours old by the time it reached the printing presses. In fact, I ended up reading only one item. It was headlined: 'Caver Killed in Northern Spain' . . . I then saw the name 'Giles Barker' at the bottom. All of a sudden the train stopped at the station where I had to get off and the doors opened. Not knowing which way to turn, I quickly tore the relevant piece out of the paper before hurriedly exiting the carriage - just in time prior to the doors closing and the train departing - leaving me standing on the platform, stunned.

Giles lent me the two ropes that were used to simultaneously climb the end of Preliminary Passage (Steve Holmes and Adrian Hanson-Abbott) and Welly Boy Aven (Tony White, Martyn Farr and Dick Gledhill) in Daren Cilau in February 1985. After Steve's best lead panned out at a horrible perched boulder choke, Dick came back to acquire the two ladders and second rope we had, which ended up being used by Tony (who'd successfully scaled the second-best lead to discover Higher Things) to make the first descent into White Passage. This is a memorial to Giles which will always be there, so long as the cave continues to exist - yet the plaque erected in Spain is, also, much appreciated.

There are plenty of people who seem to want to begrudge much in the world, especially when it comes to acknowledging others who are not themselves. I think the fewer the number of plaques the better, but, where appropriate, a plaque well placed can honour the memory of someone who has played a significant part in life or made a sacrifice locally. I can't think of a better example than the plaque at Grotte de la Luire in the Vercors, France, which I descended with Rob Murgatroyd in 1990, thanks to a welcoming, joint French-Italian summer-expedition scientific exploration of the cave, to a deep dry 'sump' from which I have a couple of rounded pebbles: https://baladesenisere.wordpress.com/2014/09/15/grotte-de-la-luire/ (penultimate image on the page).
The Bill memorial is still there

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Offline Wolfo

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Re: Memorials - research enquiry.
« Reply #37 on: September 09, 2018, 10:00:45 am »
Well it's not in the UK, but one of the oldest and  in the german language area best known caver memorials/graves is that of Alexander Mörk von Mörkenstein in the Eisriesenwelt.
He was killed in World War I and the urn containing his ashes was placed in a small memorial in the Alexander-von-Mörk-Dome around 1925.
Lower Saxony - Harz Mountain Area - Germany

Offline andybrooks

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Re: Memorials - research enquiry.
« Reply #38 on: September 09, 2018, 02:09:03 pm »
At Eisriesenwelt, also a plaque in memory of Poldi Fuhrich.

Offline FionaH

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Re: Memorials - research enquiry.
« Reply #39 on: September 11, 2018, 10:54:54 pm »
There is a memorial outside Scialet Robin in the Vercors to Philippe de la Tullaye, who died there in 2017.

Offline wormster

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Re: Memorials - research enquiry.
« Reply #40 on: September 12, 2018, 05:49:11 pm »
There's a few plaques dedicated to former members of darkplaces in a slate quarry in Mid Wales if you know where to look.
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Offline andybrooks

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Re: Memorials - research enquiry.
« Reply #41 on: September 12, 2018, 05:58:35 pm »
There is a memorial bench for Sheck Exley at Manatee Springs, and steps in his memory at Peacock Springs in Florida.
Also the underground memorial plaque for Keith Potter in Pozo del Xitu.

Online yrammy

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Re: Memorials - research enquiry.
« Reply #42 on: September 26, 2018, 01:48:57 pm »
Liv Preston who is doing the research thanks everyone for their contributions. She has a few particular areas of interest now.

Caves named (renamed?) as memorials to cavers - there are a few mentions of this on the forum i.e. :
"Boxhead Pot was named in memory of Alan 'boxhead' Box (who also died in Matienzo).  No plaque necessary."
I'm curious to what extent this happens, i'm very ignorant as to how caves are named in the first place so it would be interesting to know whether these are 'official' names or something shared between the community.

The controversy surrounding the placing of memorial plaques:
There are quite a few references to this by cavers on the forum, I wonder if there are any articles/papers discussing this issue. I'm also quite intrigued by the post about the lecture in memorial to Paul Esser. I'm going to email the university to see if they have an transcript of the lecture, but I was wondering if there was any record of similar events in your archive? This could be any kind of less traditional memorial, people also mentioned walks and other activities.

Remains in situ:
I'm going to attempt to contact some German archives for information about the grave of Alexander Mörk von Mörkenstein who's ashes were placed in the system he died in. I've already read about a few examples of cavers being buried in situ and i'd be interested to read any other articles of documents around this. For example in my research so far about the Mossdale cavers I understand there bodies were later relocated by their friends to the Mud Caverns in the system, i'm quite curious about the practicalities of such an action and the communities thoughts about such decisions.


More unusual or 'improvised' form of plaque/inscription:
As part of the paper will be a discussion about the sculptural qualities of the memorials i'm very interested in the memorials that exist in less traditional formats. For example the inscription in Ogof Wyntog, i'm also extremely interested in the misspelt mud inscription for Neil Moss.

I am following these up. I know there is a lot of information on Mossdale and the Peak Cavern Neil Moss incident. Any other contributions would be welcome.

Thanks
Mary



Offline Leclused

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Re: Memorials - research enquiry.
« Reply #43 on: September 26, 2018, 02:10:28 pm »
At the entrance of Gouffre Legarde (Doubs France) there is small memorial. I do not have a photo of my own but did found it on the following webpage.

http://www.hoehlenag.de/cavegallery_71.html

The accident is mentioned on the rescue page although the dates do not correspond.

http://www.speleo-doubs.com/secours/20ansSecours.php

"01/02/1998  - gouffre de la Légarde - Hautepierre le Chatelet    
A la suite d'une mauvaise manipulation, une spéléo belge chute de 30m et se blesse grièvement. Elle décédera peu avant son évacuation par le SSF 25. "

Dagobert L'Ecluse (SC Avalon - Belgium)
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Offline David Rose

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Re: Memorials - research enquiry.
« Reply #44 on: September 26, 2018, 03:56:08 pm »
There is a memorial to Keith Potter at the top of the first pitch (in other words at the bottom of the awkward climb into the entrance doline) in Pozu del Xitu.

Offline langcliffe

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Re: Memorials - research enquiry.
« Reply #45 on: September 26, 2018, 09:30:02 pm »
Liv Preston who is doing the research thanks everyone for their contributions. She has a few particular areas of interest now.

Caves named (renamed?) as memorials to cavers - there are a few mentions of this on the forum i.e. :
"Boxhead Pot was named in memory of Alan 'boxhead' Box (who also died in Matienzo).  No plaque necessary."
I'm curious to what extent this happens, i'm very ignorant as to how caves are named in the first place so it would be interesting to know whether these are 'official' names or something shared between the community.

I don't think that naming caves after people is very common these days, and I can't think of any example where a cave has been renamed. What is more common is naming passages or features after deceased cavers. Well known northern examples are Puits Ian Plant in Brown Hill Pot, named after Ian Plant; Glusford Chamber in Gavel Pot,  named after Duncan Glasfurd; Penny Arcade in Gaping Gill, named after Chris Penny; Glover's Chamber also in Gaping Gill, named after Dick Glover; and Boireau Falls Chamber in Langcliffe Pot named after Geoffrey Boireau. Such names are given during the original exploration, and don't replace other names.

As with any name given to a feature or part of a cave, whether it enters common parlance depends on how useful it is.

Offline mikem

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Re: Memorials - research enquiry.
« Reply #46 on: September 26, 2018, 10:19:36 pm »
Malcolm's Way in upper flood is named after Malcolm Cotter & Biff Frith's big rift in pearl mine after him, both found in digs they were involved in after they passed away.

Tony Knibbs has had an MCG award for best written contribution dedicated to him.

Mike
« Last Edit: September 26, 2018, 10:36:41 pm by mikem »

Online Ian Ball

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Re: Memorials - research enquiry.
« Reply #47 on: September 26, 2018, 10:39:19 pm »
William Frakes, John Ogden and Colin Vickers are remembered in the names of Marble Arch Cave passages in the Skreen Hill section.

Offline Graigwen

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Re: Memorials - research enquiry.
« Reply #48 on: September 26, 2018, 10:56:41 pm »
Dollimore Series in Ogof Draenen, named in memory of Nicola Dollimore who died in the Berger.


...and Noones Hole named after Noone who was thrown down it.


.

Offline mikem

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Re: Memorials - research enquiry.
« Reply #49 on: September 26, 2018, 11:11:10 pm »
Well before caving clubs, Plumley's hole in Burrington Combe...

Mike

 

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