Author Topic: BCA 2020 Demographics Report  (Read 6045 times)

Offline JoshW

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Re: BCA 2020 Demographics Report
« Reply #50 on: February 22, 2021, 03:25:38 pm »
Collecting that data isn't going to tell you anything you don't already know, as the "don't want to tell you" data will be more significant than any of the others.


interesting theory, but we won't know until we try. Using UKCaving forums as a straw poll as to how many will respond, then yes we wouldn't get many taking up the option, but i theorise that the vocal few on this forum don't fully represent the BCA membership..
All views are my own and not that of the BCA or any clubs for which I'm a member of.

Online pwhole

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Re: BCA 2020 Demographics Report
« Reply #51 on: February 22, 2021, 03:37:46 pm »
I agree that university environments are probably the best 'melting pot', for want of a better term, in terms of integrating many different cultures and ethnicities, and yes, they will be predominately middle class, for want of another better term, though that's changing. I was definitely of a poorer background than most at Uni, but it didn't stop me getting on. But many working-class or 'street' cultures are just as ethnically-mixed, especially in London, but recruiting them to go caving would be a far greater challenge - possibly for the reasons I mentioned above - that it's perceived as a 'white' activity - which is unfair, obviously, but it's there. We're all varying shades of brown underground, after all ;)

Offline Ed

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Re: BCA 2020 Demographics Report
« Reply #52 on: February 22, 2021, 03:46:44 pm »
In reply to Andrewmc & University clubs re: diversity.

Uni clubs present an easy way in to caving as they are there, in your face at freshers fair etc..... They represent that font of knowledge that many in the real world don't have.

That is exactly why BCA need to look in to it.

In reality it may well be that group x - - let's say people from SE Asian background from inner city areas or posh upper class folk (you know the sort that did Mountaineering and the Alpine Club was full of historically  :lol:) actually aren't interested in caving...... But you need to have the access to the info (both for them and BCA) to be able to say its a personal choice and not due to lack of opportunity.

Offline nearlywhite

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Re: BCA 2020 Demographics Report
« Reply #53 on: February 22, 2021, 03:48:58 pm »
Collecting that data isn't going to tell you anything you don't already know, as the "don't want to tell you" data will be more significant than any of the others.

Why? Wouldn't the proportion be similar survey to survey and so a long term trend would still be useful? Aren't they a minority too? I'm confused.

Offline nearlywhite

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Re: BCA 2020 Demographics Report
« Reply #54 on: February 22, 2021, 03:59:01 pm »
Rostam - you've got a lot of feedback already on your OP.  Isn't that what you asked for?

A lot of discussion about things not in the report. What would be more useful would be a critique of it: what have you taken away from it? What would be a more helpful way to present the data? Are there issues with the format etc?

The problem is is that I already know your feedback (this report is promoted by one of your conclusions), and Josh's unsurprisingly  ;D

It'd be also good to hear from people who go 'oh that's not been my experience' when they look at the data to see if there are subtle regional/community variations and where might need more support.

Offline JoshW

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Re: BCA 2020 Demographics Report
« Reply #55 on: February 22, 2021, 04:22:38 pm »
Rostam - you've got a lot of feedback already on your OP.  Isn't that what you asked for?

A lot of discussion about things not in the report.


oops, sorry! :spank:
All views are my own and not that of the BCA or any clubs for which I'm a member of.

Offline Badlad

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Re: BCA 2020 Demographics Report
« Reply #56 on: February 22, 2021, 04:25:52 pm »
Yes Josh - you bad  ;) ;)  ..and you a BCA official too.

Offline JoshW

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Re: BCA 2020 Demographics Report
« Reply #57 on: February 22, 2021, 04:28:58 pm »
Yes Josh - you bad  ;) ;)  ..and you a BCA official too.

people knew what they were voting for, a quick look through my antagonistic history on here would have let them know!

On a more serious note, perhaps any discussions on my very controversial proposal could be moved into a separate thread to allow Rostam to get the attention his report deserves
All views are my own and not that of the BCA or any clubs for which I'm a member of.

Online mikem

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Re: BCA 2020 Demographics Report
« Reply #58 on: February 22, 2021, 04:46:23 pm »
Might be easier to start a new topic asking for feedback.

On why comparing the data is relatively pointless - it's such a small number that you can't tell if results are significant or even if they are representative. The other corollary is that the number of cavers is so small that you already have a fairly good handle on the percentages, as you know a significant proportion personally.

Offline 2xw

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Re: BCA 2020 Demographics Report
« Reply #59 on: February 22, 2021, 05:05:14 pm »
The "it's their culture" reasoning AKA "there's nothing wrong with me there's something wrong with them" is an interesting one. I wonder if it's proponents in this thread have any evidence to back it up besides the anecdotal and, further, whether they think it's a good excuse for inaction?

Online mikem

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Re: BCA 2020 Demographics Report
« Reply #60 on: February 22, 2021, 05:14:13 pm »
Many people think there must be something wrong with us for wanting to go caving...

There's nothing to stop people trying to encourage more participation, except the argument that increased numbers will result in more damage to the caves (& the fact that current huts can't accommodate vast increases in numbers - however, hardly any are operating at capacity).

Online ChrisJC

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Re: BCA 2020 Demographics Report
« Reply #61 on: February 22, 2021, 05:15:04 pm »
I'm going to hypothesise that the data will show that there aren't many black people who go caving (what is that threshold?). I will also hypothesise that this is deemed worthy of remedial action.

I am curious to know two things:
1. How do you find out the true reason(s) why that is?
2. What do you do about it? (do you base your actions on 1. above, or do you assume you know the reasons and act on those?)

Could it ever be accepted that there is a deficit, but there is a perfectly equal opportunity to go caving for everybody, regardless of skin colour? Or do we preclude that option?

Chris.
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Online mikem

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Re: BCA 2020 Demographics Report
« Reply #62 on: February 22, 2021, 05:24:20 pm »
Main factor is they don't see others like them doing the activity - there have been many studies for other sports, so we don't need to reinvent the wheel. Surely the whole point of clubs is to be with like minded people, so the hardest part is getting the right person involved to snowball that.

Offline nobrotson

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Re: BCA 2020 Demographics Report
« Reply #63 on: February 22, 2021, 05:46:30 pm »
The "it's their culture" reasoning AKA "there's nothing wrong with me there's something wrong with them" is an interesting one. I wonder if it's proponents in this thread have any evidence to back it up besides the anecdotal and, further, whether they think it's a good excuse for inaction?

Agree that the 'it's their culture' argument is illusory. The presence of thriving caving communities in a whole wealth of places outside the global north (Indonesia and middle eastern states such as Lebanon, Iraq and Iran come to mind as immediate examples I know of) demonstrate this.

Culture is constantly evolving. As David Graeber said, 'the world is something that we make; we could just as easily make it differently'.
the man is mentally ill. I have seen him eat a plastic pie.

Offline PeteHall

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Re: BCA 2020 Demographics Report
« Reply #64 on: February 22, 2021, 06:05:28 pm »
Culture is constantly evolving.

Yes, but evolution is a slow process, that occurs naturally over time, when given the right conditions.

Our job is to provide the right conditions.

Offline nobrotson

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Re: BCA 2020 Demographics Report
« Reply #65 on: February 22, 2021, 06:10:49 pm »

Yes, but evolution is a slow process, that occurs naturally over time, when given the right conditions.

Our job is to provide the right conditions.

I know it's 'our job to provide the right conditions', that's exactly what the David Graeber quote means. And cultural change often doesn't occur naturally but is forced by external actions (climate change and colonialism are obvious ones).

When you argue that 'cultural differences' are the reason for demographic differences in caving as compared to the population as a whole, you seem to be manufacturing an excuse for a lack of change. What I was trying to say was unless the 'cultural differences' excuse is challenged caving will not change at all. Which is exactly what appears to be happening from Rostams report, since cavers are an ageing demographic with few newcomers.
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Offline nearlywhite

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Re: BCA 2020 Demographics Report
« Reply #66 on: February 22, 2021, 06:12:05 pm »
Might be easier to start a new topic asking for feedback.

On why comparing the data is relatively pointless - it's such a small number that you can't tell if results are significant or even if they are representative. The other corollary is that the number of cavers is so small that you already have a fairly good handle on the percentages, as you know a significant proportion personally.

It's a significant sample of an insignificant population seems to be what you're saying. It's a significant population to me and anything we can do to anticipate the challenges the community might face would be a good thing?

The 'I know a good proportion of all cavers' is a reason why many organisations in caving are remarkably out of touch.

Online mikem

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Re: BCA 2020 Demographics Report
« Reply #67 on: February 22, 2021, 06:41:20 pm »
But you can do that by other means than collecting almost meaningless data. The sample is so small that one person deciding to fill it in one year & not the next will affect results.

Offline cavetroll

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Re: BCA 2020 Demographics Report
« Reply #68 on: February 22, 2021, 06:53:31 pm »
Cracking news everyone, the old white men have sorted it all out. "I see no problem" & "why bother collecting data?". Great job, we can all go home.

Christmas wishlist perhaps?
https://www.waterstones.com/book/how-to-be-an-antiracist/ibram-x-kendi/9781847925992

Offline JoshW

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Re: BCA 2020 Demographics Report
« Reply #69 on: February 22, 2021, 07:53:37 pm »
But you can do that by other means than collecting almost meaningless data. The sample is so small that one person deciding to fill it in one year & not the next will affect results.

Would love to hear your thoughts on these alternate methods which will collect larger “more meaningful” sets of data?
All views are my own and not that of the BCA or any clubs for which I'm a member of.

Offline PeteHall

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Re: BCA 2020 Demographics Report
« Reply #70 on: February 22, 2021, 07:57:25 pm »
Cracking news everyone, the old white men have sorted it all out. "I see no problem" & "why bother collecting data?". Great job, we can all go home.

Christmas wishlist perhaps?
https://www.waterstones.com/book/how-to-be-an-antiracist/ibram-x-kendi/9781847925992

I suppose you don't see the irony of making a racist (and agist/ sexist) comment to support anti-racism?

Online mikem

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Re: BCA 2020 Demographics Report
« Reply #71 on: February 22, 2021, 08:10:54 pm »

Would love to hear your thoughts on these alternate methods which will collect larger “more meaningful” sets of data?
A survey would collect more useful data, not that that's saying much.

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: BCA 2020 Demographics Report
« Reply #72 on: February 22, 2021, 08:13:36 pm »
Sorry to post on my personal account but will do so until the auto post works.

The report is available here: https://british-caving.org.uk/demographics-report/

I'd be very interested in hearing people's takes on it.
Rostam
BCA P&I

My inexpert cursory glancing led me to presume:

In about 20 years time there will be about one-third the number of cavers there are now and...
Most elder cavers are WAAAY more fit and healthy than the general populace in that age range.

Neither of which is a surprise.

Offline JoshW

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Re: BCA 2020 Demographics Report
« Reply #73 on: February 22, 2021, 08:16:16 pm »

Would love to hear your thoughts on these alternate methods which will collect larger “more meaningful” sets of data?
A survey would collect more useful data, not that that's saying much.

Err would a survey collect more data? This would be like a survey but every member is automatically prompted at renewal to complete it, likely resulting in higher completion rates..
All views are my own and not that of the BCA or any clubs for which I'm a member of.

Offline 2xw

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Re: BCA 2020 Demographics Report
« Reply #74 on: February 22, 2021, 08:18:01 pm »
This might be useful for the people in this thread:
https://www.khanacademy.org/math/statistics-probability/designing-studies#sampling-methods-stats

You may also want to consider the book "Exploratory Data Analysis" by Tukey as a counterpoint to the old "we must have a hypothesis before we collect/examine data" that is taught at A level/undergrad.

The sort of data collection that Josh is proposing might be very useful, and you might not know how useful until you collect it. It might be useless: only one way to find out. Whatever happens it will be privacy compliant anyways, there's no secret conspiracy. If you're thoroughly opposed, don't provide it.

 

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