BCA 2020 Demographics Report

[pwhole]

Take race for example -- money might not be the limiting factor. There are plenty of black and SE Asian folk with enough disposable income. But with out the historic/ cultural indicators and/or personal contact who do you go about doing it.

Yes its a bit easier if you live in an area with a lot of outdoor sport - Yorkshire, mendips/ Bristol but imagine if you live in a sink estate in the middle of London or Glasgow with no frame of reference....

Give you another example - a colleague of mine from a Caribbean background via the midlands living in Bradford now. She and a group of friends (wow --- race and gender LOL)  have really got in to walking. Who does she ask for advice and ideas of places to go? Family / family friends?

No -because they have no reference to walking in rural Britain she ask me as I've a background in outdoors stuff.  Its not a conscious decision to ask me as I'm white and live in a rural area. No, its because I know  stuff  -its a subconscious choice as I'm the person in the know. 

I was talking to a black friend of mine about caving a few years ago, as he'd seen some of my photos - which he thought were great, but he said he couldn't see why I'd subject myself to so much 'misery', as he put it, to get them. I told him I thought it was exciting and interesting, but he just thought I was mental - it was a very good-humoured conversation though. But he said  'It's a classic white guy ting' (affecting his best Jamaican patois - though he's from Burngreave in Sheffield). And then he said "You'll never a see a black guy underground". To which I replied "Well, not until you laugh, anyway". He did laugh.

Anyway, a month later I was at the TSG, and what did I see but a black guy getting ready to go caving, on a Uni trip. This was too exciting for words, so I mentioned my previous conversation (now research!) to him, and he said it was probably true - he didn't know any other black people who went caving. So I had to ring my mate up and tell him his theory was at least a bit untrue - he was astonished, and sounded slightly disappointed. But a lot of this is clearly cultural differences, rather than practical obstacles.

 

[mikem]

The decrease in percentage of 40 & 50 year olds is only significant if it also coincided with a drop in actual numbers of those age groups. National studies show that the average age of the population increased from 36 in 1975 to 40 in 2019 (median was 34 back then, so approx 1 year increase every 10). If you consider that 20% of the population are under 18 (for arguments sake, average age 10) & thus not likely to be represented in BCA membership, then the average age of population that are represented will be nearer 50 years - which is closer to what most organisations find.

The 2018/19 report says 18% are over 65, this is surprisingly close to the 20% they make up of total population, although it isn't an accurate percentage, as U18s are under represented in caving.

& whatever you want to do nowadays, it has never been easier to find information about it.

 

[PeteHall]

There was anecdotal evidence in the caving regions that numbers of active cavers were declining, but this was at odds with total BCA membership numbers which remained buoyant.  Collecting age data over a period of time would allow analysis to take place to determine any trends in members? age and whether action needed to be taken.

This is the important bit. There was (anecdotal) evidence of a potential problem (declining numbers of cavers) and a proposal put forward to allow that problem to be assessed (monitoring age demographics), in case action were required (yet to be determined?).

Is there a problem that the new proposal (to collect more data) is trying to resolve? Is there any evidence (anecdotal or otherwise) that such a problem exists? If there were a problem, is collecting this data going to help assess the extent of that problem or what is causing it?

Exit surveys would be more effective and are fairly standard practice. If I don't renew my insurance, the next week, I get an email asking me to complete a short survey as to why I didn't renew. While I suspect response rates might be low, I also suspect that anyone who left with a grievance, would be only too happy to respond and vent their frustrations.

 

[JoshW]

There was anecdotal evidence in the caving regions that numbers of active cavers were declining, but this was at odds with total BCA membership numbers which remained buoyant.  Collecting age data over a period of time would allow analysis to take place to determine any trends in members? age and whether action needed to be taken.

This is the important bit. There was (anecdotal) evidence of a potential problem (declining numbers of cavers) and a proposal put forward to allow that problem to be assessed (monitoring age demographics), in case action were required (yet to be determined?).

Is there a problem that the new proposal (to collect more data) is trying to resolve? Is there any evidence (anecdotal or otherwise) that such a problem exists? If there were a problem, is collecting this data going to help assess the extent of that problem or what is causing it?

Exit surveys would be more effective and are fairly standard practice. If I don't renew my insurance, the next week, I get an email asking me to complete a short survey as to why I didn't renew. While I suspect response rates might be low, I also suspect that anyone who left with a grievance, would be only too happy to respond and vent their frustrations.

anecdotal evidence: Caving's diversity is poor and doesn't represent the wider UK population (I can name maybe 5 people of colour I know who cave regularly)
proposal: collect more data to monitor diversity demographics
action to be taken: dependent on results

I like the idea of exit surveys, but I don't think they would be even remotely as effective as you think they would be, as I think there would be an extremely low take-up on doing them, and even then all that gets you is more anecdotal evidence (which can highlight individual issues - which is awesome) but won't show an overall trend.

 

[PeteHall]

I was talking to a black friend of mine about caving a few years ago, as he'd seen some of my photos - which he thought were great, but he said he couldn't see why I'd subject myself to so much 'misery', as he put it, to get them. I told him I thought it was exciting and interesting, but he just thought I was mental - it was a very good-humoured conversation though. But he said  'It's a classic white guy ting' (affecting his best Jamaican patois - though he's from Burngreave in Sheffield). And then he said "You'll never a see a black guy underground". To which I replied "Well, not until you laugh, anyway". He did laugh.

Anyway, a month later I was at the TSG, and what did I see but a black guy getting ready to go caving, on a Uni trip. This was too exciting for words, so I mentioned my previous conversation (now research!) to him, and he said it was probably true - he didn't know any other black people who went caving. So I had to ring my mate up and tell him his theory was at least a bit untrue - he was astonished, and sounded slightly disappointed. But a lot of this is clearly cultural differences, rather than practical obstacles.

I definitely think it is cultural more than anything else.

University clubs are really good for breaking these cultural divides though, as they can (or could before covid) openly recruit from a huge pool of people, keen to try something new at freshers fair. I appreciate that this self-selects for middle class people who are more likely to go to university, but universities tend to be culturally diverse.

While at university, I caved with people of all skin colours (not that you could tell after a trip to Hall of the Mountain King), though it is true that the majority were white European.

 

[andrewmcleod]

As already stated, this is not happening, this is not a proposal, this is not a recommendation from the demographics report, this is just an idea mentioned briefly in this thread. So relax :halo:

This is the important bit. There was (anecdotal) evidence of a potential problem (declining numbers of cavers) and a proposal put forward to allow that problem to be assessed (monitoring age demographics), in case action were required (yet to be determined?).

Is there a problem that the new proposal (to collect more data) is trying to resolve?

For the sake of argument, lets go with a lack of ethnic diversity in caving as the 'potential problem' (or more specifically, barriers to ethnic minorities joining caving).

Is there any evidence (anecdotal or otherwise) that such a problem exists?

Yes. Here's my anecdote: almost all cavers are white. The exception is that student clubs are, in my experience, much more diverse than non-student clubs. Therefore, if my anecdote is right, student clubs are likely providing easier access to caving for ethnic minorities than non-student clubs, which begs the question: what are student clubs doing 'right' or non-student clubs doing 'wrong' or what other factors explain this?
Problem is, that's just an anecdote... (and let's remember that the plural of anecdote is not data and therefore whatever anecdotes other people will inevitably chip in with, it doesn't invalidate my anecdote)

If there were a problem, is collecting this data going to help assess the extent of that problem

Yes.

or what is causing it?

No.

Exit surveys would be more effective and are fairly standard practice. If I don't renew my insurance, the next week, I get an email asking me to complete a short survey as to why I didn't renew. While I suspect response rates might be low, I also suspect that anyone who left with a grievance, would be only too happy to respond and vent their frustrations.

We have enough trouble at the moment trying to contact the members we _still_ have, let alone the ones we haven't, but that's another issue altogether...

Virtually every University or job will be carrying out some sort of ethnicity data collection, plus data collection is entirely optional - it's hardly the beginnings of a police state. Nor is GDPR a problem.

 

[andrewmcleod]

Snap...

 

[JoshW]

University clubs are really good for breaking these cultural divides though, as they can (or could before covid) openly recruit from a huge pool of people, keen to try something new at freshers fair. I appreciate that this self-selects for middle class people who are more likely to go to university, but universities tend to be culturally diverse.

I agree, and I think something really interesting would be to use any data obtained (if it's obtained etc etc before people start freaking out again), to see how retention rates differ for people of colour post university.

 

[andrewmcleod]

I definitely think it is cultural more than anything else.

Well yes - what else could it be?

But that's no excuse - we should show all people how great caving is, not just people like ourselves (in whatever cultural sense that is be it skin colour or taste in music).

 

[mikem]

Collecting that data isn't going to tell you anything you don't already know, as the "don't want to tell you" data will be more significant than any of the others.

The majority of members don't choose whether to join or leave the BCA, they make the decision on the basis of their club, & most of those who only join for a year find they don't get enough caving done to justify the cost (for a variety of reasons).

 

[JoshW]

Collecting that data isn't going to tell you anything you don't already know, as the "don't want to tell you" data will be more significant than any of the others.

interesting theory, but we won't know until we try. Using UKCaving forums as a straw poll as to how many will respond, then yes we wouldn't get many taking up the option, but i theorise that the vocal few on this forum don't fully represent the BCA membership..

 

[pwhole]

I agree that university environments are probably the best 'melting pot', for want of a better term, in terms of integrating many different cultures and ethnicities, and yes, they will be predominately middle class, for want of another better term, though that's changing. I was definitely of a poorer background than most at Uni, but it didn't stop me getting on. But many working-class or 'street' cultures are just as ethnically-mixed, especially in London, but recruiting them to go caving would be a far greater challenge - possibly for the reasons I mentioned above - that it's perceived as a 'white' activity - which is unfair, obviously, but it's there. We're all varying shades of brown underground, after all

 

[Ed]

In reply to Andrewmc & University clubs re: diversity.

Uni clubs present an easy way in to caving as they are there, in your face at freshers fair etc..... They represent that font of knowledge that many in the real world don't have.

That is exactly why BCA need to look in to it.

In reality it may well be that group x - - let's say people from SE Asian background from inner city areas or posh upper class folk (you know the sort that did Mountaineering and the Alpine Club was full of historically  ) actually aren't interested in caving...... But you need to have the access to the info (both for them and BCA) to be able to say its a personal choice and not due to lack of opportunity.

 

[nearlywhite]

Collecting that data isn't going to tell you anything you don't already know, as the "don't want to tell you" data will be more significant than any of the others.

Why? Wouldn't the proportion be similar survey to survey and so a long term trend would still be useful? Aren't they a minority too? I'm confused.

 

[nearlywhite]

Rostam - you've got a lot of feedback already on your OP.  Isn't that what you asked for?

A lot of discussion about things not in the report. What would be more useful would be a critique of it: what have you taken away from it? What would be a more helpful way to present the data? Are there issues with the format etc?

The problem is is that I already know your feedback (this report is promoted by one of your conclusions), and Josh's unsurprisingly 

It'd be also good to hear from people who go 'oh that's not been my experience' when they look at the data to see if there are subtle regional/community variations and where might need more support.

 

[JoshW]

Rostam - you've got a lot of feedback already on your OP.  Isn't that what you asked for?

A lot of discussion about things not in the report.

oops, sorry! :spank:

 

[Badlad]

Yes Josh - you bad    ..and you a BCA official too.

 

[JoshW]

Yes Josh - you bad    ..and you a BCA official too.

people knew what they were voting for, a quick look through my antagonistic history on here would have let them know!

On a more serious note, perhaps any discussions on my very controversial proposal could be moved into a separate thread to allow Rostam to get the attention his report deserves

 

[mikem]

Might be easier to start a new topic asking for feedback.

On why comparing the data is relatively pointless - it's such a small number that you can't tell if results are significant or even if they are representative. The other corollary is that the number of cavers is so small that you already have a fairly good handle on the percentages, as you know a significant proportion personally.

 

[2xw]

The "it's their culture" reasoning AKA "there's nothing wrong with me there's something wrong with them" is an interesting one. I wonder if it's proponents in this thread have any evidence to back it up besides the anecdotal and, further, whether they think it's a good excuse for inaction?