BCA 2020 Demographics Report
- Thread starter nearlywhite
- Start date
JoshW said:
All it is demonstrating to me is why I no longer want to be part the BCA. These questions have nothing to do with caving and don't help the members concerned. If anything they create unnecessary anxiety for some and risk outing others that may be flying under the radar. The later would be especially relevant in a club setting.
I don't care if the BCA gets government funding. I don't expect others to support my pastime.
Please stick to caving, rather than trying to get involved in other issues.
PeteHall
Moderator
JoshW said:
Reading between the lines (dangerous I know), I get the impression that you feel certain characteristics are under-represented and you think this is because cavers aren't welcoming enough. Please correct me if I've mis-represented your views.
Given that you appear to have made up your mind already, it seems likely that you would (subconsciously?) look to verify this opinion in the data. I feel like you are coming a this with an agenda rather than with an open mind.
Let me give you an alternative explanation, and that is culture. My wife is from a minority ethic group. Within her culture, outdoor recreation really isn't poplar. She enjoys the outdoors much more than the rest of her family, as I have introduced her to the outdoor world, but her family (and most friends of the same ethnicity) have absolutely no interest in the outdoors. The opportunities are there, but culturally, there is no interest.
Before we had kids, my wife always attended any caving club socials that I went to, be it evening or weekend away. She has never felt anything other than welcome, but still has sod all interest in caving. Her words on one of the rare occasions I got her into a cave "why do you do this for fun".
I know this is only one example, but I think this is likely to have a far bigger impact than anything else. As ChrisJC has suggested, equality of opportunity does not always return equality of outcome/ representation.
Cantclimbtom
Well-known member
I just hope that gathering these stats (maybe required to demonstrate diligence and help application for certain grants?) won't actually turn out to be counterproductive.
For example in 2019 there was, thankfully briefly, some noise that funding for national parks was "racist" because users were disproportionately represented by white people. Far more sensible would have been asking how to promote outdoors to under represented communities and increase inclusion, but no common sense isn't so common it seems.
Let's hope that this information can't be used for similar silly games.
For example in 2019 there was, thankfully briefly, some noise that funding for national parks was "racist" because users were disproportionately represented by white people. Far more sensible would have been asking how to promote outdoors to under represented communities and increase inclusion, but no common sense isn't so common it seems.
Let's hope that this information can't be used for similar silly games.
PeteHall
Moderator
Back tot the original topic:
I notice that there are a number of members under 10 years old (and at least 1 under 4). I could add to this number by signing up my kids and I did think about this, as it's free, but what's the point?
I don't mean this in a dismissive way, but as a genuine question. What is the benefit for a 3 year old being a BCA member? or a 6 year old for that matter.
I'm sure they would be very happy to have a green card with their name on it, but other than that, what are the benefits? Could it be a club benefit (like using a members dormitory), or is there something else I've missed?
nearlywhite said:
I notice that there are a number of members under 10 years old (and at least 1 under 4). I could add to this number by signing up my kids and I did think about this, as it's free, but what's the point?
I don't mean this in a dismissive way, but as a genuine question. What is the benefit for a 3 year old being a BCA member? or a 6 year old for that matter.
I'm sure they would be very happy to have a green card with their name on it, but other than that, what are the benefits? Could it be a club benefit (like using a members dormitory), or is there something else I've missed?
The one, almost unique, thing about caving is that women could participate on an equal footing with men at the highest level once SRT became ubiquitous. Compared to when we started in the ?80?s there has been a big increase in participation.
It?s really the ideal sport for those who see not having to shower for several weeks as an upside.
It?s really the ideal sport for those who see not having to shower for several weeks as an upside.
ChrisJC
Well-known member
JoshW said:
This is a really really important subject. I approve of your use of the word 'representative' as it is more accurate I think.
Nevertheless, (spoken as an engineer), unless you have an agreed 'result' that you are striving to take, taking 'measurements' is pointless. You don't know whether they are good or bad.
I suspect that trying to agree what is a 'good' result is essentially impossible. Is 30% LGBT+ good or bad? What would you do about it anyway?
I am much more in favour of assessing perceptions and the reality rather than numbers. And I think you could do that by surveying people.
There could be handy side effects to having the data, but I am not sure that should be a reason to do it. And certainly this thread has demonstrated some animosity towards the gathering of it.
Even 'prefer not to say' / 'none of the above' answers carry connotations!
Chris.
JoshW
Well-known member
PeteHall said:
I do have that opinion, you're correct, however at the moment it is just an opinion, and so it can't be proven either way (more than happy to be proven wrong, it happens often enough), and so statistics (and statistics over time) are the answer.
I've sat in caving huts with caving huts and heard derogatory language regarding sexual preference. If I were a person from the LGBTQ+ community I wouldn't have found it welcoming. This is obviously a one-off experience.
My agenda is only get more information that we can try and draw useful conclusions from. The analysis of the demographics would remain with P&I, I assume.
I can't understand why anyone would be afraid of having more information to draw from to see what the organisation is and isn't doing well.
Cantclimbtom said:
Agreed entirely, there's some great work being done in the outdoors by a group called black girls hike, who actually went caving with Steph Dwyer and Yorkshire Dales Adventure Guides, and this is the kind of positive story I like to see as an outcome from looking at stats.
JoshW
Well-known member
ChrisJC said:
I think you're potentially falling into the trap of looking at a snapshot and trying to draw conclusions from that (is 30% good or bad). What I want to see is movement over a period of time to be more representative of the UK population.
What to do about it is a good question and has been touched on here but not in great depth:
consider whether the issue is retention or attraction.
If retention, why? Is there something driving away members of that group (see my anecdotal evidence of derogatory language in caving huts)
If attraction, why? Generally those living in more rural areas are white, and therefore (theorising here) it isn't unreasonably to suggest that those in rural areas are more likely to get drawn into outdoors activities like caving, is it possible to generate an outreach program to other racial groups.
It's clearly a delicate subject for some, and hence why I was keen to open this out to the uk caving population, to get a straw poll of some of the more vocal members as to how enraged they would get.
andrewmcleod
Well-known member
Why are people afraid of the data?
Whilst membership is collected through the clubs you can't guarantee the security of the data, so it shouldn't be asked for that way. Your only current option is a survey, but that probably won't tell you much unless you get a good number of responses (which is unlikely with such a small number of members).
There are a lot of current concerns about banks, supermarkets & social networks collecting personal data & what uses they can put it to.
Pete - the main reason for including children is presumably so they are covered by insurance.
There are a lot of current concerns about banks, supermarkets & social networks collecting personal data & what uses they can put it to.
Pete - the main reason for including children is presumably so they are covered by insurance.
nearlywhite
Active member
This is what I get for posting on UKC I guess.
A few important points to address:
-All this data was anonymised on transfer to P&I and the data destroyed after use to abide by GDPR.
-it's useful to know demographic data because it can help us cater to the needs of our members. We need to know what's going on and see if what we're doing has an impact or not. That's why we need trend data.
-I included the helpful reports I could find, happy to have the other reports, would be nice to put them in one place. We are changing the way reports get stored as it is a problem but I disagree with the idea we haven't learned from them.
I didn't include the Checc questionnaire as 1) it was superseded by the far larger vision questionnaire and 2) not deemed relevant to what is supposed to be an objective assessment of the membership database. Also my reports are too long as it is!
I'd say the biggest thing for signing your children up Pete is if they want to go caving in a club setting it's helpful (the free under 18s thing was done as there was a structural barrier stopping kids going caving a couple of times a year) and perhaps more importantly normalises children in at least part of the caving world. I'd also say that 3 isn't too young to cave but I might be biased in that regard.
A few important points to address:
-All this data was anonymised on transfer to P&I and the data destroyed after use to abide by GDPR.
-it's useful to know demographic data because it can help us cater to the needs of our members. We need to know what's going on and see if what we're doing has an impact or not. That's why we need trend data.
-I included the helpful reports I could find, happy to have the other reports, would be nice to put them in one place. We are changing the way reports get stored as it is a problem but I disagree with the idea we haven't learned from them.
I didn't include the Checc questionnaire as 1) it was superseded by the far larger vision questionnaire and 2) not deemed relevant to what is supposed to be an objective assessment of the membership database. Also my reports are too long as it is!
I'd say the biggest thing for signing your children up Pete is if they want to go caving in a club setting it's helpful (the free under 18s thing was done as there was a structural barrier stopping kids going caving a couple of times a year) and perhaps more importantly normalises children in at least part of the caving world. I'd also say that 3 isn't too young to cave but I might be biased in that regard.
PeteHall said:
Its not just about are caving clubs welcoming - I guess most are
Its about what are the barriers that are stopping people taking up the activity.
Take your wife or one of her relatives for example -- she is lucky that she has someone to introduce her to caving. Now imagine she / they hadn't meet you but wanted to take up caving.
Then you hit the barriers --- socioeconomic and historic rather than out and out racism / bigotry :
Where do I do it?
What are the "rules"
Are there clubs I can join ---- but they are all based in X and I live in Y. Can I join?
How do I get there?
What clothing do I need?
That is the big issue --- how to guide "minorities" to caving.
Take race for example -- money might not be the limiting factor. There are plenty of black and SE Asian folk with enough disposable income. But with out the historic/ cultural indicators and/or personal contact who do you go about doing it.
Yes its a bit easier if you live in an area with a lot of outdoor sport - Yorkshire, mendips/ Bristol but imagine if you live in a sink estate in the middle of London or Glasgow with no frame of reference....
Give you another example - a colleague of mine from a Caribbean background via the midlands living in Bradford now. She and a group of friends (wow --- race and gender LOL) have really got in to walking. Who does she ask for advice and ideas of places to go? Family / family friends?
No -because they have no reference to walking in rural Britain she ask me as I've a background in outdoors stuff. Its not a conscious decision to ask me as I'm white and live in a rural area. No, its because I know stuff -its a subconscious choice as I'm the person in the know.
At the present time there isn't that pool of knowledge / experience within the BAME communities that people can turn to --- its about getting that enabling information , help whatever you call it out there.
Oh --- and she hates the term BAME..... Quite rightly to - as its a meaningless lump us all together term
The BMC participation statistics can easily be found, although they are quite dated (2003), they include the statement (which does align with BCA membership data): "Analysis of the social status of participants shows a tendency for participants to either be young adults in higher education or middle aged, empty nesters who occasionally walk, hike or climb."
In 2019 British Canoeing had almost 3000 people complete their membership satisfaction survey, the majority were also in the 40 to 70 age bracket (with no equivalent peak for university age, although interestingly the majority who responded had also only been members for a couple of years). 73% are male & they do have sexuality, ethnicity & disability responses, but the end of the report does question whether these are necessary (certainly the prefer not to answer box got more ticks than most of the other options, so tends to question whether they are representative).
In 2019 British Canoeing had almost 3000 people complete their membership satisfaction survey, the majority were also in the 40 to 70 age bracket (with no equivalent peak for university age, although interestingly the majority who responded had also only been members for a couple of years). 73% are male & they do have sexuality, ethnicity & disability responses, but the end of the report does question whether these are necessary (certainly the prefer not to answer box got more ticks than most of the other options, so tends to question whether they are representative).
andrewmc said:
I don't think people are necessarily afraid of the data.
Some are afraid of what others might do with the data. Others don't like their individuality being used so that organisations can wave their equality flag, or make judgements based on over simplistic data that groups together individuals into somewhat meaningless minority groups.
Very often this type of data and what it is used for can focus on the differences, rather than what we all have in common. I see that creating problems, rather than removing them.
Rostam - you've got a lot of feedback already on your OP. Isn't that what you asked for?
I think a few people have got carried away with data collection that just isn't happening and was only a suggestion. The original idea was to look at the age demographic of the membership. In the event this is only collected as Year of Birth and is voluntary. The reason given in my earlier reports was,
"Back in 2016 I encouraged BCA to collect age data from the membership. There was anecdotal evidence in the caving regions that numbers of active cavers were declining, but this was at odds with total BCA membership numbers which remained buoyant. Collecting age data over a period of time would allow analysis to take place to determine any trends in members? age and whether action needed to be taken. I suggested that the membership had an aging population and that this could cause future problems if not enough younger cavers were attracted to the sport to take their place. A separate discussion might be made on whether the BCA membership reflects those participating in our sport.
In the end BCA decided to collect year of birth (YOB) data but only on a voluntary basis. With the help of the BCA administrator and a retired statistician I produced a report for council in 2017. This follow up report includes data from both 2018 and 2019."
2018 & 19 report attached if anyone would like to see what this is all about.
I think a few people have got carried away with data collection that just isn't happening and was only a suggestion. The original idea was to look at the age demographic of the membership. In the event this is only collected as Year of Birth and is voluntary. The reason given in my earlier reports was,
"Back in 2016 I encouraged BCA to collect age data from the membership. There was anecdotal evidence in the caving regions that numbers of active cavers were declining, but this was at odds with total BCA membership numbers which remained buoyant. Collecting age data over a period of time would allow analysis to take place to determine any trends in members? age and whether action needed to be taken. I suggested that the membership had an aging population and that this could cause future problems if not enough younger cavers were attracted to the sport to take their place. A separate discussion might be made on whether the BCA membership reflects those participating in our sport.
In the end BCA decided to collect year of birth (YOB) data but only on a voluntary basis. With the help of the BCA administrator and a retired statistician I produced a report for council in 2017. This follow up report includes data from both 2018 and 2019."
2018 & 19 report attached if anyone would like to see what this is all about.
The conclusion and recommendations from my three years (2017-2019) reporting on the BCA age democratic. I hope it wasn't time wasted.
Conclusion:
The age demographic of the BCA membership has remained much the same over the three years. This shows an old membership but not necessarily an aging membership. Data collection could be improved by making age mandatory on application. Analysing the age data over a longer period will be able to identify any worrying or significant trends. However, there are hints of trends, such as a decrease in the percentage of members in their 40s and 50s and an increase in those under 20 and over 70, which may be of interest. It is not yet possible to conclude whether there is enough input at the younger end of the age demographic to offset those who depart from the upper end, nor is it possible to conclude, one way or the other, that membership input is healthy across the age spectrum.
Recommendations:
BCA should continue to collect annual membership data and analyse the results. Consider making age data collection compulsory rather than voluntary. Criteria should be set on the process of how and when data is supplied to the statistician. I would be pleased to step aside from my role and place the statistician directly in contact with the administrator. The longer term analysis of trends should inform council how to direct future efforts and budgeting towards the promotion of caving and recruitment into the sport going forward.
Conclusion:
The age demographic of the BCA membership has remained much the same over the three years. This shows an old membership but not necessarily an aging membership. Data collection could be improved by making age mandatory on application. Analysing the age data over a longer period will be able to identify any worrying or significant trends. However, there are hints of trends, such as a decrease in the percentage of members in their 40s and 50s and an increase in those under 20 and over 70, which may be of interest. It is not yet possible to conclude whether there is enough input at the younger end of the age demographic to offset those who depart from the upper end, nor is it possible to conclude, one way or the other, that membership input is healthy across the age spectrum.
Recommendations:
BCA should continue to collect annual membership data and analyse the results. Consider making age data collection compulsory rather than voluntary. Criteria should be set on the process of how and when data is supplied to the statistician. I would be pleased to step aside from my role and place the statistician directly in contact with the administrator. The longer term analysis of trends should inform council how to direct future efforts and budgeting towards the promotion of caving and recruitment into the sport going forward.
