Author Topic: Ballot Results  (Read 4007 times)

Online Badlad

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Re: Ballot Results
« Reply #25 on: November 02, 2021, 06:00:49 pm »
Andrew - what now for constitutional reform.  When Mad Phil was around he assured me (and others) that your group was going to rewrite the whole constitution within a year.  I always thought that was optimistic but is that still the aim?  The argument was that continually proposing tweaks and changes each year is a waste of resources when everyone seems to agree that wholesale changes are required.  As you say something much shorter and concise is really needed.  It is probably four years or more since constitutional change groups were first established by BCA but to date the only changes proposed have been the piecemeal ones each year.  What's the plan?

Assume that the direction this group and the BCA takes as a whole will be dictated by Russell, the new chair and member of the COG

I may be wrong but I think it is the council who decide such matters - in line with the constitution and direction from any AGM of course.  From the constitution,

The National Council shall have the power to deal with matters concerning the national interests of the Association, within the terms of reference given to it by the Association. It shall be bound by the Aims and by the Constitution of the Association.

The Executive Committee shall operate under the direction of and shall report to the National Council. It shall regulate its own business within the constraints of the Association’s “Manual of Operations”.

Online ChrisJC

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Re: Ballot Results
« Reply #26 on: November 02, 2021, 06:08:37 pm »
Assume that the direction this group and the BCA takes as a whole will be dictated by Russell, the new chair and member of the COG

Let's hope that nobody mistakes him for a 4 legged item of furniture at the next meeting!  :o :lol:

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Offline andrewmc

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Re: Ballot Results
« Reply #27 on: November 02, 2021, 08:26:12 pm »
[...]thinking about it with hindsight (always a wonderful thing) it might have been better to ask people to rank the choices: scrap altogether, leave it alone as is, go for a complete re-write.

There were probably better ways to do it, but how do you tally that with the requirement to get 70% for constitutional changes?

You could have had a poll before the AGM to decide the preferred option, and then approve it in the online ballot, but that would mean organizing a separate ballot which would be quite impractical and extra faff.
You could hold the poll in the online ballot, but then you'd have to either have a complicated motion to have a second online ballot which was pre-approved for constitutional change, or a special general meeting, or wait until the next AGM to approve the decision.
You could have a motion to approve the results of the ranking poll, and a ranking poll in the same AGM, but then you'd be asking people to approve a constitutional change when they didn't know what the actual change would be...

Hence the slightly weird solution. Possibly it could have been phrased in a more straightforward way, but then the voting site would have had to be re-written to deal with non-yes/no ballots! :P

Offline Jenny P

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Re: Ballot Results
« Reply #28 on: November 02, 2021, 08:36:44 pm »
[...]thinking about it with hindsight (always a wonderful thing) it might have been better to ask people to rank the choices: scrap altogether, leave it alone as is, go for a complete re-write.

There were probably better ways to do it, but how do you tally that with the requirement to get 70% for constitutional changes?

Hence the slightly weird solution. Possibly it could have been phrased in a more straightforward way, but then the voting site would have had to be re-written to deal with non-yes/no ballots! :P

Exactly.

I think we probably did the best we could in a fairly impossible situation. Given that there were those who wanted several different solutions, it simply wasn't possible to set this up to require a yes/no response.

If BCA do decide to visit this again they will now be aware of just how difficult this one is.
 

Online Badlad

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Re: Ballot Results
« Reply #29 on: November 02, 2021, 08:45:02 pm »
Andrew - the 2020 AGM proposal put forward by me stated,

"This motion instructs council to consider a new form of words for section 10.1 of the BCA constitution taking into account the above and to agree those words at council by majority vote in time to present them as a constitutional change to the 2021 BCA AGM."

It looks like council didn't check on what they were required to do.  It was council who should have voted to put one proposal forward and allow the AGM to vote on that.

Offline JoshW

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Re: Ballot Results
« Reply #30 on: November 02, 2021, 09:58:21 pm »
In fairness there’s nothing in the proposal saying only one set of wording should be brought forwards to the AGM
All views are my own and not that of the BCA or any clubs for which I'm a member of.

Offline Russell Myers

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Re: Ballot Results
« Reply #31 on: November 02, 2021, 09:58:43 pm »
Thought I had it in the bag  :-[ No in all seriousness thanks to all those who voted for me, 46% of the vote isn't too shabby.

While I'm sad to have lost, a little embarrassed and disappointed, I'm surprised at how much I had overestimated my support. That probably reflects how divided caving is at the moment, kind of appropriate to be stuck in an echo chamber I guess. I've got a fair amount to reflect on and some time away from council can only be good for my sanity. Good luck to the new (old?) team and I hope they find the stability promised.

Here's to being the first proper loser in BCA history  :beer2:

Commiserations to Rostam as the “first proper loser in BCA history”; fortunately, I did not overestimate my support and worked my socks off to win, a competitive streak I have found in myself. It is a trait I will pursue in continuing to work as BCA Chair for the benefit of the British caving community in its entirety with the conviction to apply my style of chairing.
I disagree that the vote reflects how divided caving is at the moment, I think it came down to a straightforward question of how many cavers did I, or my friends and acquaintances know, to influence the vote rather than the politics of the day; the personal touch! Dave Rose in summarising the “hustings” podcasts commented on how similar the two of us came across with our replies to the questions put to us.
So, I would like to lay to rest the idea that British Caving is divided, it ain’t but a bit like “fake” news, keep repeating it often enough and some of it will stick. My advice is to ignore it and any of the “muck raking” from the past, the future is bright, the past is behind us; there is a great wide world of positives out there which we need to embrace.
At the end of the day, it is all about caving which is our common thread and a very strong one at that; once a caver, always a caver with all the attributes that bestows on an individual, resilience, fortitude, stoicism and a whole lot more creating a strong sense of adventure. We all share these traits, there are no divisions in caving.
You need look no further than the recent Three Counties Grand Traverse, what an achievement; not a dissenting voice amongst 50 or so cavers on the day plus all those involved in the run up to the attempt beforehand, all united in a common goal, a potent “tour de force” demonstrating the best of British caving and what we can achieve united.
To reinforce my message, I take issue with Rostam on the matter of “division” but I wish him well in the future and thank him for his service to BCA and the caving community at large which I promise to serve to the best of my ability.
Kind Regards
Russell Myers
Chair
British Caving Association
JFK: Change is the law of life and those who look only to the past or present are certain to miss the future.

Offline Jenny P

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Re: Ballot Results
« Reply #32 on: November 02, 2021, 10:03:54 pm »
Andrew - the 2020 AGM proposal put forward by me stated,

"This motion instructs council to consider a new form of words for section 10.1 of the BCA constitution taking into account the above and to agree those words at council by majority vote in time to present them as a constitutional change to the 2021 BCA AGM."

It looks like council didn't check on what they were required to do.  It was council who should have voted to put one proposal forward and allow the AGM to vote on that.

It would, of course, have been perfectly possible for council to have agreed a new form of words for section 10.1 and presented them as a constitutional change to the 2021 AGM.

If council had done so and the constutional change had been rejected by the ballot, who would you then have blamed for not achieving the outcome you clearly wanted?

It was precisely because it was impossible to agree on a new form of words for 10.1, or even whether a new form of words was wanted, that we have ended up in the situation we have done.

Which is why I said earlier:
Exactly.
I think we probably did the best we could in a fairly impossible situation. Given that there were those who wanted several different solutions, it simply wasn't possible to set this up to require a yes/no response.

If BCA do decide to visit this again they will now be aware of just how difficult this one is.


Online Ian Ball

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Re: Ballot Results
« Reply #33 on: November 02, 2021, 10:19:12 pm »
Congrats Russell, enjoy your time in office. 

That motion from Badlad seems to suggest removal was not an option?   :-\

Was the NCA and such predecessors equally so difficult?  I think I can guess the answer!






Offline BradW

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Re: Ballot Results
« Reply #34 on: November 02, 2021, 10:26:32 pm »
Well done, Russell. We all need a chair that believes that what unites us is far more important than what divides us.

Offline andrewmc

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Re: Ballot Results
« Reply #35 on: November 02, 2021, 10:57:24 pm »
Andrew - the 2020 AGM proposal put forward by me stated,

"This motion instructs council to consider a new form of words for section 10.1 of the BCA constitution taking into account the above and to agree those words at council by majority vote in time to present them as a constitutional change to the 2021 BCA AGM."

I don't think Council can actually make AGM proposals?

A new form of words was developed by a working group of Council. It was approved by majority vote at a Council meeting. That new form of words was then submitted as a proposal to the AGM, where it gained a majority but (narrowly) failed to gain the 70% required. The fact that two other proposals were also submitted doesn't invalidate that.

Offline badger

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Re: Ballot Results
« Reply #36 on: November 03, 2021, 08:32:48 am »
I agree with Jenny regarding 10.1. I also think what ever words BCA could have put forward, I think one group of cavers somewhere in the country would not have agreed as it did not say what they wanted it to say. If the BCA members feel that strongly it can be put forward again for the membership to instruct council to go away and think again.

As for Chair, I would have been happy for either Russell or Rostam, I think they both have strengths and weakness's, but believe they both wanted BCA to grow and support British cavers.

I am sorry to see Rostam resign (assuming Rostam is going through with his statement from the interviews) as Rostam I think was a good P&I officer.

I am also sad to see Will resign, due to his work commitments, as C&A was working very well, hopefully someone will come forward who has as much passion for C&A that Will showed.

Offline mikem

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Re: Ballot Results
« Reply #37 on: November 03, 2021, 08:51:37 am »
Umm, members voted for the removal of P&I position...

Online Badlad

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Re: Ballot Results
« Reply #38 on: November 03, 2021, 09:42:32 am »
Quoting Russell
Quote
You need look no further than the recent Three Counties Grand Traverse, what an achievement; not a dissenting voice amongst 50 or so cavers on the day plus all those involved in the run up to the attempt beforehand, all united in a common goal, a potent “tour de force” demonstrating the best of British caving and what we can achieve united.

I agree totally with this.  I have been involved in many, many projects and expeditions where cavers have worked brilliantly together to achieve a goal.  However those same 50 or so cavers would probably not agree on an issue of cave politics, access, conservation, training, anchor policy, constitution changes etc and that is where the challenge for BCA lies.  This is not new as Bob Mehew tells me there were enormous issues and differences in just bringing BCA about in the first place (from NCA) and that is why the whole format and constitution of the organisation is a bit of a bodge up.  In my experience BCA is just fine when it doesn't really do anything.  If there is not complete consensus then kick the issue down the road indefinitely, that is one way you can operate.  As soon as change, modernisation or, heaven forbid, an issue like CRoW, comes about then you tend to find very divisive opinion and big problems pushing forward even with large democratic support.  Cavers come from all parts of society so I guess they reflect differences we find in our wider lives.

Anyway good luck

Offline aricooperdavis

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Re: Ballot Results
« Reply #39 on: November 03, 2021, 11:48:35 am »
Umm, members voted for the removal of P&I position...

P&I will become a Group, still operating with a Chair and a fixed role set by BCA Council, but without a vote on council.

If anyone would like to volunteer for either the P&I or IT groups I'd love to hear from you ;D

Offline aricooperdavis

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Re: Ballot Results
« Reply #40 on: November 03, 2021, 11:57:46 am »
And, to jump back a few messages, I've had the OK to release some further analysis of the vote results. First, more details of how the votes for Motions 2A/B/C were related:



This illustrates that, of those who didn't abstein for all 3 of these motions, 82% voted for some change to this section of the constitution, whilst only 16% voted against any change.

Motion 2C only fell short of the 70% support threshold by 8 votes, whilst there are a potential 82 "split" votes for motions 2A and 2B that may have preferred 2C to no change at all but didn't support it because it wasn't their preference of the three motions.

Secondly, the distribution of when votes were cast, which should help inform the choice of ballot duration:


Offline Jenny P

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Re: Ballot Results
« Reply #41 on: November 03, 2021, 12:10:43 pm »
That is excellent detailed information and is sure to be really useful - thanks very much Ari !

Offline andrewmc

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Re: Ballot Results
« Reply #42 on: November 03, 2021, 12:11:28 pm »
P&I will become a Group, still operating with a Chair and a fixed role set by BCA Council, but without a vote on council.

Strictly speaking I think the motion was just to remove the vote of the P&I Officer which was a quirk inherited from making it the only non-executive Officer position (that wasn't the chair of a standing committee), which leaves it entirely in the hands of Council to appoint a P&I Officer with or without a group (since Council can appoint whoever or whatever it wants to assist it and the work of the BCA; it just can't give people a vote on the Council except as defined by the constitution or an AGM).

Offline PeteHall

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Re: Ballot Results
« Reply #43 on: November 03, 2021, 12:48:03 pm »
And, to jump back a few messages, I've had the OK to release some further analysis of the vote results. First, more details of how the votes for Motions 2A/B/C were related:



This illustrates that, of those who didn't abstein for all 3 of these motions, 82% voted for some change to this section of the constitution, whilst only 16% voted against any change.

Motion 2C only fell short of the 70% support threshold by 8 votes, whilst there are a potential 82 "split" votes for motions 2A and 2B that may have preferred 2C to no change at all but didn't support it because it wasn't their preference of the three motions.
This is really insightful Ari, thanks for sharing. I'll be honest, I expected more overlap and I expected more votes against all three. Still, the biggest individual group (other than abstentions) was as I expected, favouring all three.

Could you produce a similar diagram showing votes against the three motions (and even abstentions if you can be bothered) ? But would this actually tell us anything?  :-\


Quote
Secondly, the distribution of when votes were cast, which should help inform the choice of ballot duration:


This is less surprising, but also informative.

Offline nearlywhite

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Re: Ballot Results
« Reply #44 on: November 03, 2021, 01:26:44 pm »
I am sorry to see Rostam resign (assuming Rostam is going through with his statement from the interviews) as Rostam I think was a good P&I officer.

I can't stay on council as I fundamentally disagree with Russell's approach, the executive have too much power, take liberties and council does little to keep them in check. I ran for chair as I felt like I had no other choice. I want to keep volunteering but there's no space for me on council as I'd be afraid I'd gum things up and mine and Russell's working relationship is... Antagonistic at best, and I acknowledge I'm not blameless in that.

I believe the BCA will go back to doing nothing but being insurance and funding for regions. That's ok, it's what people voted for - that's what 'stability' realistically means.

I can't find a replacement P&I officer but this isn't a surprise as there'll only be three under 45s left once myself, Ari and Will have gone. There is a real divide between the younger and older cavers and the technology gap is a serious impediment to modernisation. Pretending there isn't a divide and claiming unity with 53% of the vote won't help achieve the agenda promised.

I'm obviously gutted to miss out on having the opportunity to start some real change but realistically it would have taken 6 years to get the right people in the right roles to start updating stuff. I hope I'm wrong and I'll do my best to help in the background.

Offline BradW

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Re: Ballot Results
« Reply #45 on: November 03, 2021, 02:04:55 pm »
I ran for chair as I felt like I had no other choice.

If this was the main reason you ran, then perhaps it's why you lost. Running because you feel you have something good to offer might have been a better reason, and won you more votes.

I can't find a replacement P&I officer but this isn't a surprise as there'll only be three under 45s left once myself, Ari and Will have gone. There is a real divide between the younger and older cavers and the technology gap is a serious impediment to modernisation.
Dismissing the capabilities of older people also doesn't win many votes. Sorry, Rostam, but this statement in itself is non-inclusive and divisive.

Offline JoshW

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Re: Ballot Results
« Reply #46 on: November 03, 2021, 02:26:27 pm »

I can't find a replacement P&I officer but this isn't a surprise as there'll only be three under 45s left once myself, Ari and Will have gone. There is a real divide between the younger and older cavers and the technology gap is a serious impediment to modernisation.
Dismissing the capabilities of older people also doesn't win many votes. Sorry, Rostam, but this statement in itself is non-inclusive and divisive.

I don't think he's really dismissed the capabilities of older people, but I can see how it would be read like that.

As a member of council, I can see why young people might be put off joining the old boys club that goes on for hours of inefficiencies. I'm certainly not looking forwards to council meetings restarting, but see it as a necessary evil to keep up the good work the volunteers in Y&D are doing.

The technology gap is a serious impediment to modernisation. For example, prior to Allan stepping up as acting secretary, a vote took place where council overwhelmingly (unanimously if I remember correctly) voted in favour of showing on the minutes of meetings which members of council voted in favour/against/abstain on each motion. When Allan stepped up this was deemed too much hard work, when there was a technological solution at hand (a simple voting button on zoom which will record exactly who votes for what), but this was deemed too difficult for some members of council (by members of the exec I will add). Because of this, the vote made by council has been ignored and the step towards transparency has been cancelled.
All views are my own and not that of the BCA or any clubs for which I'm a member of.

Offline 2xw

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Re: Ballot Results
« Reply #47 on: November 03, 2021, 02:58:02 pm »
I wouldn't take BradW seriously, Josh. It's a troll account, that's why they use a VPN and won't put a name to their words (even though it's pretty obvious who they are and how much damage they've done to British caving). I would ignore their obvious goading.

Offline BradW

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Re: Ballot Results
« Reply #48 on: November 03, 2021, 03:09:43 pm »
I wouldn't take BradW seriously, Josh. It's a troll account, that's why they use a VPN and won't put a name to their words (even though it's pretty obvious who they are and how much damage they've done to British caving). I would ignore their obvious goading.
Could you tell us why you have resigned, Will - it might help give an insight into what you think is wrong with the way things have turned out.

Offline 2xw

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Re: Ballot Results
« Reply #49 on: November 03, 2021, 03:43:48 pm »
I wouldn't take BradW seriously, Josh. It's a troll account, that's why they use a VPN and won't put a name to their words (even though it's pretty obvious who they are and how much damage they've done to British caving). I would ignore their obvious goading.
Could you tell us why you have resigned, Will - it might help give an insight into what you think is wrong with the way things have turned out.

Sure, now that I've finished my doctorate I need to start my career and this unfortunately won't leave any time left for volunteering. If I have any spare time, it'll be used for actual caving!

I've been very vocal in the past about what I feel are issues in the BCA - so I'll be avoiding undermining the new administration by refusing to be goaded by you into that particular bunfight, thanks :)

 

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