UK Caving

TECHNICAL FORUMS => National Access Discussions => Topic started by: Badlad on July 16, 2020, 11:08:53 am

Title: Trespass
Post by: Badlad on July 16, 2020, 11:08:53 am
The government manifesto stated it wanted to introduce a law to make trespass a criminal offence.  The law is to be aimed at travellers but the Ramblers, BMC and many other outdoor groups are very concerned with the implications of such a law and are fighting against it.  Both the CNCC and BCA C&A officer responded to the government consultation highlighting concerns on how it might effect other users of the outdoors.

There is a petition at https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/300139 if anyone wishes to sign it. 

That petition states, "The Government's manifesto stated “we will make intentional trespass a criminal offence”: an extreme, illiberal & unnecessary attack on ancient freedoms that would threaten walkers, campers, and the wider public. It would further tilt the law in favour of the landowning 1% who own half the country."
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: andrewmc on July 16, 2020, 11:14:46 am
If trespass is criminalised, most trips down Swildon's will be illegal, unless you are going to knock on half the doors in Priddy asking for permission for the bit of cave they own, since ownership extends, by case law (Bocardo SA v Star Energy UK Onshore Ltd) deep below the surface...
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: ChrisJC on July 16, 2020, 09:43:18 pm
'Trespass with a motor vehicle' is already a criminal offence, and Travellers do it all the time. Never used as a lever though to 'move them on'.

So I doubt if this will make any difference.

Chris.
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: RobinGriffiths on July 16, 2020, 10:22:56 pm
There's already aggravated trespass which is a criminal offence. If there's a specific 'use case' they are after with this act, why not just bring that under aggravated trespass and let the rest of us wander around with the benefit of the ancient freedoms bestowed by our ancestors?
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: Joe Duxbury on August 29, 2020, 04:35:44 pm
If trespass is to become 'more' criminalised, I wonder if the chain of shops that goes by the name 'Trespass' will change. It always amused me that they would use such a title. Can you imagine a shop called 'Drunk Driving', or 'Grievous Bodily Harm'?
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: mikem on August 29, 2020, 04:52:07 pm
Apparently they started out supplying the local police (the current brand being created in 1984):
https://www.trespass.com/our-story
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: ZombieCake on August 29, 2020, 06:32:42 pm
Plenty of existing laws and provisions to move travellers on, and are not used as much as perhaps they should be. So a new law won’t make a blind bit of difference and will likely be used to further curtail current freedoms for law abiding citizens.
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: pwhole on August 31, 2020, 02:00:21 pm
If trespass is to become 'more' criminalised, I wonder if the chain of shops that goes by the name 'Trespass' will change. It always amused me that they would use such a title. Can you imagine a shop called 'Drunk Driving', or 'Grievous Bodily Harm'?

There's still a band ;)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GBH_(band)
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: RB on September 01, 2020, 02:32:27 pm
I'm not a frequent poster here but there is now a fascinating new book just come out on trespass which I've just started reading. Goes into the history of the land and some great insights into how much of our outdoor space is closed off.

I'd certainly recommend it to anyone with an interest in the whole trespass and access debate. Certainly got me thinking about the whys and wherefores of cavers having to ask permission from landowners in the first place...

Its called the Book of Trespass by Nick Hayes...https://www.waterstones.com/book/the-book-of-trespass/nick-hayes/9781526604699 (https://www.waterstones.com/book/the-book-of-trespass/nick-hayes/9781526604699)

Cheers...

Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: Jenny P on September 01, 2020, 06:15:03 pm
I note it's being plugged in the Guardian (of course!) so you can get it cheaper from the Guardian Bookshop.  Sounds like being well worth reading.
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: SamT on September 02, 2020, 11:36:35 am
Recently bought this for my dad for his Birthday.  Looks good.

He's an avid proponent of trespass, loves all the Kinder Mass Trespass stuff, and I remember going to Hayfield as a child and walking up to the downfall with Benny Rothman et al (must have been one of the more notable anniversary events).


Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: mikem on September 02, 2020, 12:39:57 pm
He was at the 50th, in 1982, & passed away shortly before the 70th (2002):
http://kindertrespass.org.uk/anniversary-and-celebrations/
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: SamT on September 02, 2020, 01:00:48 pm
82 sounds about right - I'd have been 10.
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: nearlywhite on September 02, 2020, 01:18:15 pm
If trespass is to become 'more' criminalised, I wonder if the chain of shops that goes by the name 'Trespass' will change. It always amused me that they would use such a title. Can you imagine a shop called 'Drunk Driving', or 'Grievous Bodily Harm'?

Reckon they'd be an adult dodgems and a tatoo parlor so yes  :lol:
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: mikem on September 02, 2020, 02:30:53 pm
Pretty much correct about latter:
https://www.bigreddirectory.com/gbh-body-piercing-studio-saint-austell
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: Jenny P on December 21, 2020, 05:39:53 pm
Update on the situation.

“Don’t criminalise trespass”:
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/300139

MPs on the Petitions Committee have scheduled this petition for debate on Monday 25 January. The debate will be led by Committee member Katherine Fletcher MP, and a Minister from the Home Office will respond for the Government.

Watch live from 4.30pm on Mon 25 Jan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2Nfs4F39l8
Read the transcript (published shortly after the debate ends): https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2021-01-25
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: badger on December 21, 2020, 06:32:04 pm
you would think with the current situation and brexit the government have far more important matters to get sorted, and the last time the gov, went in with a 1/2 arsed idea cause it said it the manifesto we ended up with brexit, you would have thought they might have learnt.
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: Badlad on December 21, 2020, 10:27:56 pm
I expect this is seen as a great idea by the Tory chumocracy.
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: Kevlar on January 25, 2021, 07:56:27 pm
I'm not a frequent poster here but there is now a fascinating new book just come out on trespass which I've just started reading. Goes into the history of the land and some great insights into how much of our outdoor space is closed off.

I'd certainly recommend it to anyone with an interest in the whole trespass and access debate. Certainly got me thinking about the whys and wherefores of cavers having to ask permission from landowners in the first place...

Its called the Book of Trespass by Nick Hayes...https://www.waterstones.com/book/the-book-of-trespass/nick-hayes/9781526604699 (https://www.waterstones.com/book/the-book-of-trespass/nick-hayes/9781526604699)

Cheers...

After reading about it on here we got the book and thought it was great. Nick Hayes is now doing various podcasts and interviews promoting his campaign  (https://www.righttoroam.org.uk/)with different groups of outdoor enthusiasts and found the recent one with SOUP (Sheffield OUtdoor Plungers) really interesting, especially the quetsions towards the end. I really hope those involved in the CROW discussions have already approached this guy, it would be really interesting to see a similar BCA video discussing cave access with him.

ShAFF Online - Nick Hayes Talk with SOUP (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wub4s3mpk-A)
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: Badlad on January 25, 2021, 08:08:00 pm
I ordered it too.  Fascinating read.  Nick Hayes was interviewed at the Kendal Mountain literary festival - also good.  Once you have a reasonable understanding of trespass, land acquisition and the broad points Nick guides you to then the whole CRoW issue becomes much more supportable.  It certainly encouraged me to give up my time to campaign on behalf of British Caving.  Now it's over to Dave Rose and hopefully he'll read your suggestion.

 :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: mikem on January 25, 2021, 08:42:28 pm
The talk was hosted by the Sheffield adventure film festival & they have a couple more that may be of interest (plus links to buy the book from independent bookstore): https://shaff.co.uk/
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: mrodoc on January 26, 2021, 05:04:44 pm
We might grumble about access but in Eire all land is private. You should see how small the walking guides are - there are virtually no public rights of way. Luckily most but not all landowners are happy to let cavers go onto their land.
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: mikem on January 26, 2021, 05:50:24 pm
Most of our rights of way are just the routes locals took to visit their neighbours, work or church.
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: al on January 26, 2021, 11:07:16 pm
Not entirely off-topic, but, if you ever get a chance to see "the Cheviot, the Stag and the Black, Black Oil", a play by John McGrath, take it. It's not so much about trespass, more about land ownership and its history north of the border.

But it's not solely historic. I first saw the play enacted by the 7:80 Theatre Company in Preston in the early 70s and found it fascinating and very moving and, the year before last, I went to see its latest incarnation revived by the National Theatre of Scotland (in association with Dundee Rep and Live Theatre, Newcastle) when I was having a break on Orkney, and it has been brought up-to-date, incorporating some much more recent inroads into our freedoms.

It is funny, musical and there is much audience participation ... but I defy you to come away from it unaffected by the message it brings.

EDIT: Sorry - I should really have put this post in the land management thread!!
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: NeilC on January 27, 2021, 08:32:03 am
Most of our rights of way are just the routes locals took to visit their neighbours, work or church.

That reminds me of something that's always puzzled me - as almost all rights of way have come about simply because they were the routes that people used to get about, most people having no means of transport other than by foot until comparatively recently, why are there so few of them in Scotland and Ireland?  Presumably people there needed to walk about just as much as English people did?  And given the more dispersed settlement patterns, I'd have expected more paths rather than fewer.
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: mikem on January 27, 2021, 09:07:33 am
They were still tenants when the footpaths were established.
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: mrodoc on January 27, 2021, 09:17:21 am
Most of our rights of way are just the routes locals took to visit their neighbours, work or church.

That reminds me of something that's always puzzled me - as almost all rights of way have come about simply because they were the routes that people used to get about, most people having no means of transport other than by foot until comparatively recently, why are there so few of them in Scotland and Ireland?  Presumably people there needed to walk about just as much as English people did?  And given the more dispersed settlement patterns, I'd have expected more paths rather than fewer.
Possibly smaller population and differing terrain. There are plenty of 'green roads' in Southern Ireland but I don't know what their status is.
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: NeilC on January 27, 2021, 10:57:12 am
Most of our rights of way are just the routes locals took to visit their neighbours, work or church.

That reminds me of something that's always puzzled me - as almost all rights of way have come about simply because they were the routes that people used to get about, most people having no means of transport other than by foot until comparatively recently, why are there so few of them in Scotland and Ireland?  Presumably people there needed to walk about just as much as English people did?  And given the more dispersed settlement patterns, I'd have expected more paths rather than fewer.
Possibly smaller population and differing terrain. There are plenty of 'green roads' in Southern Ireland but I don't know what their status is.

I suspect this is the explanation in areas like the Highlands, for example, but you also find very few rights of way in areas like the Central Belt, which is as densely populated, and similar in terrain to many parts of northern England.  And of course Ireland was very heavily populated until the famine.  Perhaps many of the pre-famine paths have just disappeared back into the landscape?  :shrug: 
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: mikem on January 27, 2021, 11:03:53 am
They were also "owned" by the landed gentry, who didn't want their tenants to have rights.
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: NeilC on January 27, 2021, 11:15:15 am
They were also "owned" by the landed gentry, who didn't want their tenants to have rights.

That's true, but then it was also true of most of rural England (indeed, in many cases, still is).
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: mikem on January 27, 2021, 11:30:08 am
Yes, but by the time the footpaths were legitimised, the English were already establishing their independence, which wasn't to come to the Scots & Irish until later
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: zzzzzzed on January 27, 2021, 12:07:11 pm
Yes, but by the time the footpaths were legitimised, the English were already establishing their independence...
Who were the English establishing their independence from??

According to this article  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_way  it was the Irish constitution of 1937 that strengthened property owner's rights and removed many rights of way.

In 2009 the Land and Conveyancing Law Reform Act further strengthened the rights of Irish landowners by ‘abolishing the doctrine of lost modern grant’, that allows a user to claim a right of way after 12 years of use.
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: mikem on January 27, 2021, 12:16:51 pm
From the major landowners. I believe they weren't instituted in English law until 1949.
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: Stuart France on March 13, 2021, 10:35:02 am
The long-awaited debate arising from the “Don’t Criminalise Trespass” petition to Parliament is taking place next week.  The government has decided to restrict its law reform ambitions to criminalising encampments which involve a vehicle so this will not affect ramblers or cavers who go on foot.

You can read the Government's factsheet about this Bill's provisions on unauthorised encampments here:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/police-crime-sentencing-and-courts-bill-2021-factsheets/police-crime-sentencing-and-courts-bill-2021-unauthorised-encampments-factsheet

Watch the debate, which should start at approximately 3.30pm on Monday and 12.30pm on Tuesday, here:
Monday 15 March: https://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/b1c475ce-a63f-4769-9070-566963040718
Tuesday 16 March: https://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/67a700ab-4500-4fdb-802b-f2e06854f6e1

You'll be able to read a transcript of the debates a few hours after they happen: https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons

Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: mrodoc on March 13, 2021, 11:00:19 am
The Irish really weren't looking forward so intent were they on dumping their colonial past. Land access is extremely restrictive.  I just checked the areas of their national parks . You might be suprised to know the largest is in Donegal  sized at 65 square miles. The smallest only covers 5 square miles!  There are only 5 covering 151 square miles out of a total land surface of 27,130 square miles.  Epping forest is nearly as big in area as the Burren National Park that consists of one hill Mullagh More. The Irish have a long way to go to improve land access. Having said this the North is no better having none!

Most landowners in Eire are relatively laid back about visitors on their land but even the most desolate spots are owned by somebody as cavers have discovered in the Burren and landowners can turn quite nasty.
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: ChrisJC on March 13, 2021, 12:14:49 pm
I climbed Carrauntoohil (1034m) in Eira a few years back. It is their highest peak.
I was amazed that there is no public right to do so. It is entirely by the kindness of the landowner!

Chris.
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: mrodoc on March 13, 2021, 05:47:18 pm
I do  think it extraordinary - and we complain over here!
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: Stuart France on March 13, 2021, 08:38:50 pm
I do think it extraordinary too.  This is a thread about the UK Government contemplating making trespass in general into a criminal offence in England and Wales.

The difficulties such might create have been averted, thanks to a widely supported Parliamentary petition and behind the scenes work by the Ramblers, OSS, BMC and BCA, etc.

The immediate response from Mendip (above) to such good news is to switch this topic back to the Republic of Ireland once again.  I am sorry, but Ireland, Scotland etc are off topic.
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: Oceanrower on March 13, 2021, 11:01:56 pm
I am sorry, but Ireland, Scotland etc are off topic.

Really? Says who? What gives you the right to say which direction a thread should go?

Might need a bigger forum to fit that ego in. Not sure there’s enough room on this one!

Pretty sure that Scotland AND Mendip are part of the UK.
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: Stuart France on March 14, 2021, 10:13:28 am
But the new trespass law will only apply in England and Wales.

In Scotland this matter is devolved to Holyrood, and the Republic of Ireland is a separate sovereign state, so those jurisdictions are off topic, as is the ad hominem commentary.
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: mikem on March 14, 2021, 10:24:50 am
If the thread title were more specific, then the discussion probably would be too. But as there isn't really anything to add until the commons make their pronouncement, it's either wander off topic or lose the thread.
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: Badlad on March 15, 2021, 08:43:58 am
I seem to recall legislation aimed at preventing terrorism was used against peaceful protesters trying to stop the authorities cutting down trees in Sheffield.

It would not surprise me at all if this legislation is used on outdoor groups in some way and not just restricted to traveller encampments.
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: ttxela2 on March 15, 2021, 09:11:37 am
It definitely seems like a concerning move, I recall one occasion where due to a map reading error I walked along a field edge where I thought a path ran, I was approaching a  minor road where a car screeched to a halt and a fellow, practically apoplectic with rage leapt out and spluttered at me that I was trespassing and there was no path there. I insisted that there was, a short argument followed, I consulted my map and acknowledged that, yes, the path was about a metre and a half away on the other side of the hedge.

Hoping to end the confrontation I began to step towards the road which was only a few yards away where I could rejoin my route correctly (which headed along the road anyway). This prompted the fellow to even more rage and he insisted I could not proceed. The hedge was impenetrable for me to join the correct path and so I pointed out that my only alternative was to retrace my steps for much further to where the original error was made. This suggestion really infuriated him which left us at somewhat of an impasse'.

In the end I simply walked past him and onto the road in the face of a barrage of shouting and fist waving and he jumped back in his car and sped off with much tyre screeching.

This was perhaps 3 years ago but still sticks in my memory, I never felt particularly intimidated and the incident was more comical than anything else, I assume he was the farmer but I've still no real idea what prompted his rage, it was just an ordinary arable field and I was walking the edge doing no discernible damage, the correct path didn't look well used so I can't imagine crowds of folk pass that way causing problems.

Interesting to speculate that if this happened in the future he may have been justified in calling the police and I could have been arrested and spent the rest of my days breaking rocks in the hot sun.
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: mrodoc on March 15, 2021, 09:37:12 am
You get people like that who are looking to take offence. Just ignore them - they have probably had a bad day! I once nearly got beaten up for staring at the pavement when a passing character thought I was staring at his feet!
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: RobinGriffiths on March 15, 2021, 09:43:58 am
Some landowners are ok, some aren't. I was doing a new path a few weeks ago where the OS map showed the path going between a house and some out buildings, but the path had actually been re-routed around the house. I had a polite 'can I help you' from the owner, with a 'you're welcome to continue' if you're happy to climb the gate to rejoin the path.
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: mikem on March 15, 2021, 10:26:34 am
& they usually react badly where they've had other people do the same in the past, not necessarily with as reasonable a reaction as yours.
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: ttxela2 on March 15, 2021, 11:05:35 am
It's certainly true that some (most) landowners would be reasonable in this sort of case and perhaps bad reactions are based on previous experiences where damage was caused - however if this becomes a criminal act then presumably I would have had no defence and would have to be punished by whatever penalty is set for this offence?

Or perhaps not - intent is often required to be proved for an offence to take place, indecent exposure being a good example, you cannot be prosecuted simply because of a 'wardrobe malfunction' whereas something like speeding is always an offence and 'just not seeing the sign' is not a defence.

So I guess how worried walkers and such need to be all depends on how the law is worded......
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: mikem on March 15, 2021, 11:36:01 am
The government has decided to restrict its law reform ambitions to criminalising encampments which involve a vehicle so this will not affect ramblers or cavers who go on foot.
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: ChrisJC on March 15, 2021, 11:38:38 am
So I guess how worried walkers and such need to be all depends on how the law is worded......

The problem for me isn't necessarily how the law is worded, it is how the first judges to try the new law interpret it. So a good lawyer will twist it away from the original intent (which is probably good), and into something which can be abused by those with the deepest pockets.

Chris.
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: Speleofish on March 15, 2021, 11:46:26 am
Reading the factsheet, the bill seems to have a fairly narrow focus and is directed mainly at travellers/people camping in vehicles. Obviously much depends on the wording of the eventual bill but it doesn't seem to change the situation for pedestrians. It may strengthen police powers to intervene in aggravated trespass (does this include unsanctioned digging?) but otherwise I don't see how it will affect the majority of people.

However, as ChrisJC says, by the time a lawyer has tangled things up and a judge has re-interpreted it, the effect may be less benign.
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: mikem on March 15, 2021, 12:50:12 pm
Unsanctioned digging would come under criminal damage. Aggravated trespass involves "Intentionally obstructing, disrupting, or intimidating others from carrying out ‘lawful activities’." (So if you threatened the landowner, or their agents)
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: Wardy on March 16, 2021, 08:38:07 pm
i had a memorable experience when out prospecting up Wharfedale a few years back with my wife.
We were the wrong side of the wall from the access land to be honest and had followed a track along the bench that cut in round a ghyl and back out.
As I checked out a small shake hole Sarah noticed two farmers lads who started shouting across the ghyl at us whilst waving their shotgun in our direction. We took this as a bad sign.
For a moment I pondered our situation then realised that while they were looked close they did have to run round the top of the ghyl, so we probably had quite a head start and were both fairly good runners.
That was it we both set off along the bench at a fair pace with two teenagers swearing profusely in hot pursuit.
After getting on for a mile we came across a lone walker also trespassing and in the middle of his lunch - Surprised he first saw us then heard the expletives and finally linked the events, rapidly packing up and setting off after us.
After about a mile and a half we finally reached a footpath cutting down off the fell and hared off down it, still with the noise of angry teenagers in the distance.
To this day I cannot imagine what the teenagers would have done had they managed to shoot us - Would we have been taken back to the farm as trophies.
Alternatively they could have caught up with us only to find we were nastier than them!
I definitely learnt a valuable lesson that day - dressing appropriately does not mean wearing your favourite bright red fleece when trespassing! 
The whole thing does bring out the stupidity of the situation in relation to access, as the fell in question is unimproved land, just on their chosen side of the wall.
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: crickleymal on March 17, 2021, 09:45:45 am
I'd have been tempted to report it to the police. Threatening people with firearms is serious.
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: RobinGriffiths on March 17, 2021, 10:30:08 am
Sounds like a cross between a Benny Hill chase and Deliverance.
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: mikem on March 17, 2021, 12:41:21 pm
Excuse me officer, we were trespassing & then we ran away from people who we can't identify...
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: crickleymal on March 17, 2021, 06:51:13 pm
Well trespass isn't criminal and they were able to identify them as teenagers.
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: Wardy on March 17, 2021, 07:16:21 pm
I had a similar experience a few years earlier and pre CRoW whilst coming back from a days digging at Benfoot with John New.
The weather was dreadful, cold wet and windy, so rather than being more discreet we cut straight across the fell down past Swarthgill to the Mossdale track.
A few hundred metres before we got to the track we spotted a line of fancy Range Rovers just upstream of Mossdale and coming our way.
We hurriedly bridged the gap to the track and then walked along it calmly waiting for them to pass and trying to look innocent.
As the first one caught up with us it slowed and my heart sank as an extremely well dressed gent wound down the window, looked me in the eye and with a wry smile asked "Good days caving Lads?" before raising the window and calmly driving off.
In this case we were caught red handed and he made his point, but in a far more dignified way.
Maybe that's the difference between a hill farmer and the landed gentry.
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: Down and beyond on March 18, 2021, 07:41:32 am
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/300139

Could be of interest don’t no if it’s been shared  the outcome date  looks like month tomorrow
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: tony from suffolk on March 18, 2021, 08:21:22 am
Being one of the "Locals", the farmers hereabouts are happy to let me wander around their field edges on my early morning dog walks, as long as I'm prepared to chew the fat with them for a while, but anyone they don't know gets the sharp edge of their tongue. It's a real problem to them during this pandemic, with the ignorant townies tramping across crops.

Echoing Wardy's experience, I remember a group of us walking across the fields to the top of Ebbor Gorge to do a bit of abseiling when a hunt was on. A couple of riders, dressed in their hunting kit, came galloping towards us & a very posh, indignant lady demanded to know what we were doing on "her' fields (I don't think they were hers, mind). Once we explained where we were going, and that our sacks only contained ropes & abseiling gear, she was happy to let us carry on. She explained there was a concern we were hunt saboteurs "...So jolly good show, carry on chaps!"
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: Down and beyond on March 18, 2021, 08:33:07 am
Being one of the "Locals", the farmers hereabouts are happy to let me wander around their field edges on my early morning dog walks, as long as I'm prepared to chew the fat with them for a while, but anyone they don't know gets the sharp edge of their tongue. It's a real problem to them during this pandemic, with the ignorant townies tramping across crops.

Echoing Wardy's experience, I remember a group of us walking across the fields to the top of Ebbor Gorge to do a bit of abseiling when a hunt was on. A couple of riders, dressed in their hunting kit, came galloping towards us & a very posh, indignant lady demanded to know what we were doing on "her' fields (I don't think they were hers, mind). Once we explained where we were going, and that our sacks only contained ropes & abseiling gear, she was happy to let us carry on. She explained there was a concern we were hunt saboteurs "...So jolly good show, carry on chaps!"

We have got very similar issues locally in the aspect of hunting causing issues but are problems sadly stretch far worse , this removes any chance of permission because the mines are in pheasant pens and they are the only mines for a good 60 miles from us so we have to travel , when we have been stopped and turned away they always think are bags are for stealing their birds and we have tried a lot of times to reason with them for permission it will never happen now if this law goes through .
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: mikem on March 18, 2021, 09:54:54 am
It is often the case of finding the right person to chat to in the pub.
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: Cantclimbtom on March 18, 2021, 10:00:35 am
The problem with cavers is... they look like cavers, and unlike any other land users. Firstly there is the rope/kit bag: PVC yellow/orange/blue then there is the general scruffiness. Quite unlike the sort of thing any decent ordinary folk with a peerage would carry and why won't those oiks wear proper Hunter's wellies?

Once the government has reviewed trespass and Lords have amended, man traps will be legalised. Flushing out and hunting (by horse and hounds) people with PVC bags will be recognised a countryside sport ;)


Edit: as much as I'm joking above, I also have sympathy for farmers disrupted by swarms of inconsiderate and indiscrete people.
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: Alex on March 18, 2021, 11:01:27 am
Parliament is going to debate the petition you signed – “Don’t criminalise trespass”.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/300139

The debate is scheduled for 19 April 2021.

...

So I guess watch this space.
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: mikem on March 18, 2021, 11:05:18 am
But Hunter's wellies have the worst possible grip on rock...
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: kay on March 19, 2021, 08:15:43 am
Parliament is going to debate the petition you signed – “Don’t criminalise trespass”.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/300139

The debate is scheduled for 19 April 2021.

...

So I guess watch this space.

Remember petitions are debated in Westminster Hall, not in the Chamber of the House of Commons. The quorum for a debate is 3, including the Chairman.
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: crickleymal on March 19, 2021, 10:17:09 am
Parliament is going to debate the petition you signed – “Don’t criminalise trespass”.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/300139

The debate is scheduled for 19 April 2021.

...

So I guess watch this space.

Remember petitions are debated in Westminster Hall, not in the Chamber of the House of Commons. The quorum for a debate is 3, including the Chairman.
Petition is closed
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: D.Send on March 20, 2021, 12:59:58 pm
Hi,
'Free mining' laws ensure that prospecting and digging should go unhindered, provided that land is rendered usable. This applies to any abandoned sites too. There are special courts to oversee any disputes. (Many silver/lead veins were found in natural caves). Being strategic, underground resources belong to the crown, not to private landowners, and that since way before medieval charters were established to this effect. 'Resources' also include coal, oil and gas, etc... (and perhaps water).
D.Send.
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: mikem on March 20, 2021, 01:12:47 pm
Only gold & silver belong to the crown, all other minerals are private property (& free mining only applies in very limited circumstances)
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: D.Send on March 20, 2021, 10:49:04 pm
Hi mikem,
Things are not quite as simple as you indicate : All 'private' lands in England and Wales are crown (now state) lands, the details of the 'holdings' being complex ! The state has the rights to oil, gas, coal, gold and silver (and hence to lead lodes), or tin under local law, and ALL depending on declarations in the Land Registry. Things get quite complex when you look at the details...
  D.Send.
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: mikem on March 21, 2021, 09:19:57 am
Especially as the mineral rights can be held by someone other than the land above, & tin is mostly on Duchy of Cornwall land. The Crown also holds mineral rights for quite a bit of North Wales, due to the gold there.

However: "Following the privatisation of the coal industry, the ownership of all coal now resides with the Coal Authority which assumed responsibility for unworked coal and liabilities for past coal mining in 1994."
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: pwhole on March 21, 2021, 10:57:37 am
I managed to find another of the Sheffield seam outcrops the other day, after much furtling in the undergrowth. This is the Whinmoor, or Mickley Thick seam, just updip from the Silkstone seam, a much more famous (and larger) one. It cuts through Gleadless, Arburthorne and Norfolk Park, before heading into the town centre - there's not a lot visible these days, and this will vanish in a month once the vegetation has grown back. But it's a good example of how these seams were originally discovered. I did bring a bit home with me, but not much your honour, only a pocketful.
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: alastairgott on March 21, 2021, 09:46:34 pm
Can't even confine you to Sheffield without finding rocks to look at.

 I walked past some limestone boulders, not erratics as they had been placed there. But quite out of place where they are being 20-30miles away from limestone! If it helps me stay vaguely on topic, they were surrounded by signs saying you are on CCTV and big hedges with signs nearby saying private land (I was on a public footpath).

I also tried to follow a path I came down the other week, but realised the drive said private property. I walked down the main road a bit and took a path, seems it links up to the same place, but no-one really bothered to put any footpath signs up for those coming off the hill.

I remember a story a friend told me that they had been to a mill to check it out for a photoshoot, not on public land. But there were also some kids on the site too, which they turned a blind eye to. Some security guards showed up and asked both groups what they were doing there, my friend told them he was telling off the kids for being on the site! Which got some raised eyebrows but both got let off...
Title: Re: Trespass
Post by: D.Send on March 21, 2021, 09:59:32 pm
Hi mikem,

The forest of Dean, claims ancient free mining rights, for coal, but in a major iron ore district too...
And iron ore was often mined in palaeokarsts...

  D.Send.
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