Author Topic: Who's the Helmet without the helmet???  (Read 2768 times)

Online Tomferry

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Re: Who's the Helmet without the helmet???
« Reply #25 on: July 27, 2021, 02:07:08 pm »
Sounds like Cae coch sulphur mine I shall have to put that on my list of places to visit I love stuff like that !! ;D

Offline droid

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Re: Who's the Helmet without the helmet???
« Reply #26 on: July 27, 2021, 02:54:47 pm »
There's a local mine group that do trips down both Parys and Mona mines.

Can't remember the name but someone on here will know.
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Offline royfellows

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Re: Who's the Helmet without the helmet???
« Reply #27 on: July 27, 2021, 03:12:26 pm »
PUG
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Online lumenchild

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Re: Who's the Helmet without the helmet???
« Reply #28 on: July 27, 2021, 04:31:35 pm »
Sounds like Cae coch sulphur mine I shall have to put that on my list of places to visit I love stuff like that !! ;D
parry's mountain is absolutely stunning, the colours are astoundingly beautiful, there was photos on Adit Now, but i think Adit-now is changing websites to a different provider, but I'm certain you can still find photo's of parrys mountain, i would put it at one of the top 5 places i have ever been, i did a trip down there that was guided and it was great, but i wish i had of taken my camera :-[
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Offline Paul Marvin

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Re: Who's the Helmet without the helmet???
« Reply #29 on: July 27, 2021, 04:41:22 pm »
Sounds like Cae coch sulphur mine I shall have to put that on my list of places to visit I love stuff like that !! ;D

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Offline alex17595

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Re: Who's the Helmet without the helmet???
« Reply #30 on: July 27, 2021, 04:48:14 pm »
My first helmet was a builders helmet , they cost peanuts nowadays had a few different ones since but We like the Camp ones as they are pretty low profile, our diving helmets are the kayak AP400 which do the job lovely .

I use my work one and judging by the gouges on the top it has saved from some serious damage. It did backfire when it decided to go for a roll down the incline in Cwmorthin.

Offline sinker

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Re: Who's the Helmet without the helmet???
« Reply #31 on: July 27, 2021, 06:09:46 pm »
Sounds like Cae coch sulphur mine I shall have to put that on my list of places to visit I love stuff like that !! ;D

Lypsil at the ready    :yucky:

It wasn't that bad....only ONE of us contracted leptospirosis....not a bad result....?! ;D

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Offline Ian P

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Re: Who's the Helmet without the helmet???
« Reply #32 on: July 27, 2021, 06:21:55 pm »
You would be surprised Mark just how many people go underground not dressed properly

A few years ago a group of us were surprised on a trip to Oxlow Cavern in the Peak. We arrived at the entrance to find three cavers about to descend the entrance shaft. They appeared to be a man and his late teenage / early  twenties sons.

They had brand new gear: everything from top to toe, oversuits, SRT gear, ropes, tackle bags, karabiners, the lot.

BUT between the three, not a single helmet!

Reminds me of a trip in Ease Gill several years ago. A couple of us were on our way down from Top Sink and caught up with a group around the area of Snail Cavern (if I've got the right name?), shortly before reaching the Minarets.

The group of three were all wearing matching brand new oversuits, helmets and lights, with a brand new harnesses and brand new tackle bag (presumably containing the rest of their brand new SRT kit).

We paused and asked them where they were going and the group leader said they were doing County to Wretched Rabbit, "this is the right way isn't it?"  :o

We offered to take them to Lancaster Hole, as it would not be too much of a detour from our route and it was rigged. I then checked that they had SRT kits and knew how to use them. The leader assured me they would be fine. I described the rebelay and asked if they were ok with that and the leader again assured me they would be fine.

As we were about to set off, one of the group spoke up and said he wasn't too confident about the rebelay and what other options did they have.

It transpired that the "leader" had been lead on a Wretched Rabbit to County trip the week before and had brought his mates along to reverse the trip. Their total SRT experience involved going down the County pitch earlier in the day. The leader hadn't noticed (or at least admitted) that on his previous trip, he'd been travelling in small passages, but was now in a stonking great cavern!

I too them back to Main Line Terminus, where we fortunately bumped into a group who were heading out Wretched Rabbit and kindly agreed to escort the three numpties out. I say three numpties, it was really one numpty and his mates, who, had they not spoken up about not being very confident at SRT, might have ended up in an even worse situation.

Having bought all the kit, I sincerely hope that the two mates found someone more reliable to take them caving in future and I hope that the "leader" realised how lucky he was to have met two groups who were prepared to help them out, otherwise they would have had a long wait for rescue!

The phrase "all the gear, no idea" springs to mind.

Pete

I am really sorry that our new caving kit and presence in the cave caused you so much offence during your heroic through trip.

The week earlier we had been on our first club trip from Spiral Staircase to County Pot. Suitably enthused we planned to repeat the trip on our own. Just before we set off we got talking to an instructed group, the instructor told us about the Manchester By pass route and gave us an explanation. Naively (or as we are numptys in your mind) we thought we would do that as he made it sound good.

We pre rigged County and set off down Spiral Staircase and eventually reached Snail cavern obviously missing the turn off for Manchester bypass. We had realised that things were not as they should be and were considering our options. Retracing our steps was always an option (even as numptys we could remember that).We would not have needed a rescue, although you saying this makes you sound so much better.  We met you on your amazing through trip, your kit was muddy and used so you were obviously incredibly experienced and a cave god, unlike us in our new suits just trying to learn about caving.

We discussed options with you and you mentioned Lancaster hole, a 40m pitch with “hanging rebelays” (still not found them ?)Yes one of the 3 Numptys changed his mind about going up it.
You kindly took us back 300m to the start of Manchester bypass (you have my genuine thanks for that)where we met the instructor who had suggested the trip to us. All was good and we made our way out with them.

We returned over the next few weekends and repeated the trip until we had it “dialled” into our numpty brains. We then used this knowledge to slowly learn other routes within the system.

Fast forward a few years, I have given Thousands of people, young and old a positive introduction to caving. I have run numerous training workshops for new and experienced cavers who have all learned something from the numpty. I have even managed some other “big boy” caving trips.

Also a few years ago we were going from Bar Pot to Main Chamber, on getting to South East pot we heard distressed calls from Flood exit route. A caver was hung up about 15m up. We couldn’t communicate due to high water levels. Soon his tone of voice changed and we were worried for his safety. I committed to prussicing up his rope unsure of what the problem was, on getting closer I saw that he had abseiled below the deviation. (He had also put his handjammer on and weighted that) I was on the rope been held from a 6m drop onto my jammers  by a piece of 6mm polypropylene cord.

I rescued him and got him down and he was rushed off to the winch. When I met him later in the tea tent been warmed by CRO, I refrained from calling him a Numpty (it was his first SRT trip ever) I wished him well, hoped he would keep caving and to join our club.

Again I can only apologise that 3 numptys who wanted to learn about caving caused you so much trouble.  I am now aware that any “mistake” whilst caving automatically makes you a Numpty and you must immediately find someone else to cave with.
I thank you for your wisdom and insight into what a proper caver (with all the gear and all the ideas) thinks about others.

Regards

Ian

Offline Paul Marvin

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Re: Who's the Helmet without the helmet???
« Reply #33 on: July 27, 2021, 06:44:41 pm »
Sounds like Cae coch sulphur mine I shall have to put that on my list of places to visit I love stuff like that !! ;D

Lypsil at the ready    :yucky:

It wasn't that bad....only ONE of us contracted leptospirosis....not a bad result....?! ;D



Wellies Phil Wellies protect from the dreaded splash over   :clap2: :lol: BUT only just by about 6mm at the bottom,  Sue went over.. when we return will make a fuss of that shot we were looking at near the owl perch  ;)  :thumbsup:
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Offline sinker

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Re: Who's the Helmet without the helmet???
« Reply #34 on: July 27, 2021, 07:18:42 pm »
You would be surprised Mark just how many people go underground not dressed properly

A few years ago a group of us were surprised on a trip to Oxlow Cavern in the Peak. We arrived at the entrance to find three cavers about to descend the entrance shaft. They appeared to be a man and his late teenage / early  twenties sons.

They had brand new gear: everything from top to toe, oversuits, SRT gear, ropes, tackle bags, karabiners, the lot.

BUT between the three, not a single helmet!

Reminds me of a trip in Ease Gill several years ago. A couple of us were on our way down from Top Sink and caught up with a group around the area of Snail Cavern (if I've got the right name?), shortly before reaching the Minarets.

The group of three were all wearing matching brand new oversuits, helmets and lights, with a brand new harnesses and brand new tackle bag (presumably containing the rest of their brand new SRT kit).

We paused and asked them where they were going and the group leader said they were doing County to Wretched Rabbit, "this is the right way isn't it?"  :o

We offered to take them to Lancaster Hole, as it would not be too much of a detour from our route and it was rigged. I then checked that they had SRT kits and knew how to use them. The leader assured me they would be fine. I described the rebelay and asked if they were ok with that and the leader again assured me they would be fine.

As we were about to set off, one of the group spoke up and said he wasn't too confident about the rebelay and what other options did they have.

It transpired that the "leader" had been lead on a Wretched Rabbit to County trip the week before and had brought his mates along to reverse the trip. Their total SRT experience involved going down the County pitch earlier in the day. The leader hadn't noticed (or at least admitted) that on his previous trip, he'd been travelling in small passages, but was now in a stonking great cavern!

I too them back to Main Line Terminus, where we fortunately bumped into a group who were heading out Wretched Rabbit and kindly agreed to escort the three numpties out. I say three numpties, it was really one numpty and his mates, who, had they not spoken up about not being very confident at SRT, might have ended up in an even worse situation.

Having bought all the kit, I sincerely hope that the two mates found someone more reliable to take them caving in future and I hope that the "leader" realised how lucky he was to have met two groups who were prepared to help them out, otherwise they would have had a long wait for rescue!

The phrase "all the gear, no idea" springs to mind.

Pete

I am really sorry that our new caving kit and presence in the cave caused you so much offence during your heroic through trip.

The week earlier we had been on our first club trip from Spiral Staircase to County Pot. Suitably enthused we planned to repeat the trip on our own. Just before we set off we got talking to an instructed group, the instructor told us about the Manchester By pass route and gave us an explanation. Naively (or as we are numptys in your mind) we thought we would do that as he made it sound good.

We pre rigged County and set off down Spiral Staircase and eventually reached Snail cavern obviously missing the turn off for Manchester bypass. We had realised that things were not as they should be and were considering our options. Retracing our steps was always an option (even as numptys we could remember that).We would not have needed a rescue, although you saying this makes you sound so much better.  We met you on your amazing through trip, your kit was muddy and used so you were obviously incredibly experienced and a cave god, unlike us in our new suits just trying to learn about caving.

We discussed options with you and you mentioned Lancaster hole, a 40m pitch with “hanging rebelays” (still not found them ?)Yes one of the 3 Numptys changed his mind about going up it.
You kindly took us back 300m to the start of Manchester bypass (you have my genuine thanks for that)where we met the instructor who had suggested the trip to us. All was good and we made our way out with them.

We returned over the next few weekends and repeated the trip until we had it “dialled” into our numpty brains. We then used this knowledge to slowly learn other routes within the system.

Fast forward a few years, I have given Thousands of people, young and old a positive introduction to caving. I have run numerous training workshops for new and experienced cavers who have all learned something from the numpty. I have even managed some other “big boy” caving trips.

Also a few years ago we were going from Bar Pot to Main Chamber, on getting to South East pot we heard distressed calls from Flood exit route. A caver was hung up about 15m up. We couldn’t communicate due to high water levels. Soon his tone of voice changed and we were worried for his safety. I committed to prussicing up his rope unsure of what the problem was, on getting closer I saw that he had abseiled below the deviation. (He had also put his handjammer on and weighted that) I was on the rope been held from a 6m drop onto my jammers  by a piece of 6mm polypropylene cord.

I rescued him and got him down and he was rushed off to the winch. When I met him later in the tea tent been warmed by CRO, I refrained from calling him a Numpty (it was his first SRT trip ever) I wished him well, hoped he would keep caving and to join our club.

Again I can only apologise that 3 numptys who wanted to learn about caving caused you so much trouble.  I am now aware that any “mistake” whilst caving automatically makes you a Numpty and you must immediately find someone else to cave with.
I thank you for your wisdom and insight into what a proper caver (with all the gear and all the ideas) thinks about others.

Regards

Ian

Nice one, love it. "Old fashioned elitist cavers" eh....?!

Enough to make you want to disappear down a mine and avoid all the political handbags  ;)

Ah, well, now, you see...erm...

Online Tomferry

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Re: Who's the Helmet without the helmet???
« Reply #35 on: July 27, 2021, 08:24:20 pm »
Sounds like Cae coch sulphur mine I shall have to put that on my list of places to visit I love stuff like that !! ;D
parry's mountain is absolutely stunning, the colours are astoundingly beautiful, there was photos on Adit Now, but i think Adit-now is changing websites to a different provider, but I'm certain you can still find photo's of parrys mountain, i would put it at one of the top 5 places i have ever been, i did a trip down there that was guided and it was great, but i wish i had of taken my camera :-[

Sounds very good please don’t tell me any more because if I tell the lads I am extending the list of places we must go to they shall  :spank: it’s already extremely long  :lol:

Offline Cantclimbtom

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Re: Who's the Helmet without the helmet???
« Reply #36 on: July 28, 2021, 10:35:50 am »
I'm completely split on the topic of competence. One half of me remembers my first rock climb, I'd saved up for a rope and borrowed a tiny amount of random kit (no helmets obviously, 1 harness, etc)  and went with a mate, I was at pains to tell him to bring trainers but only when we got there he revealed the only footwear he had were the leather soles winkle picker Chelsea boots he was wearing and he thought they'd be sturdy so best choice. We went up the ordinary route idwal slab. Frozen puddles and black ice at top, I slipped and went ar5e over t1t hit my head and came to righ on an edge (off rope of course). My first trip in a mine was nowhere near that bad but was definitely have-a-go with a mate who didn't climb abseil srt etc, he was a quick learner.

The other half of me is horrified and wants to buy those guys the cheapest helmet from Screwfix.

Bravo to their adventure. Nill points, to not getting a Screwfix helmet.
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Online Speleofish

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Re: Who's the Helmet without the helmet???
« Reply #37 on: July 28, 2021, 10:50:28 am »
Like Tom, I'm split on this one. Like me, I suspect a number of people on this forum started with less than perfect kit and limited supervision (both caving and climbing) - and probably had more and better adventures as a result. It would be very hypocritical for me to be criticise too much....

Offline Digit

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Re: Who's the Helmet without the helmet???
« Reply #38 on: July 28, 2021, 11:21:46 am »
Like Tom, I'm split on this one. Like me, I suspect a number of people on this forum started with less than perfect kit and limited supervision (both caving and climbing) - and probably had more and better adventures as a result. It would be very hypocritical for me to be criticise too much....

I would agree but there is a world of difference between inexperience and plain stupidity.

Offline Paul Marvin

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Re: Who's the Helmet without the helmet???
« Reply #39 on: July 28, 2021, 11:33:56 am »
Like Tom, I'm split on this one. Like me, I suspect a number of people on this forum started with less than perfect kit and limited supervision (both caving and climbing) - and probably had more and better adventures as a result. It would be very hypocritical for me to be criticise too much....

I would agree but there is a world of difference between inexperience and plain stupidity.

Too right Bro !!   :clap2:
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Online Tomferry

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Re: Who's the Helmet without the helmet???
« Reply #40 on: July 28, 2021, 12:20:21 pm »
I have to  admit I didn’t have a helmet for many years until I joined aditnow and stepped out of my local area into mines which required more than flat walking , now days I would never go without it , it’s a massive learning curve underground exploring
« Last Edit: July 28, 2021, 12:30:53 pm by Tomferry »

Offline pwhole

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Re: Who's the Helmet without the helmet???
« Reply #41 on: July 28, 2021, 02:00:00 pm »
For my first trips, the only thing I had was a helmet - with a light attached. I think I got some gloves next :)

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Re: Who's the Helmet without the helmet???
« Reply #42 on: July 28, 2021, 02:47:39 pm »
For my first trips, the only thing I had was a helmet - with a light attached. I think I got some gloves next :)

What - you were naked except for helmet and gloves?  :o
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Online Tomferry

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Re: Who's the Helmet without the helmet???
« Reply #43 on: July 28, 2021, 02:49:12 pm »
That’s a seriously bad image in my head bumping into a Man Underground like he has been fly tipped with nothing via gloves and a lid    :lol:

I remember my first head torch appearing on watch dog many years later for the risk of battery explosion I certainly got rid of that quick ! I think that was my first  learning curve buy rated  and trusted equipment.


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Online PeteHall

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Re: Who's the Helmet without the helmet???
« Reply #44 on: July 29, 2021, 10:02:21 am »
Pete

I am really sorry that our new caving kit and presence in the cave caused you so much offence...

I'm not easily offended Ian and I am always very pleased to see people enjoying the underground for the first time (refer to my post above), however coming across a very inexperienced group in the wrong part of a complex cave system, a long way from any entrance (where experienced cavers have regularly been known to get lost) is likely to cause worry to any responsible caver.

With your current experience, put yourself in my shoes for a minute, would you really have sent three unknown people, on their 1st or 2nd caving trip, with basically no SRT experience up Lancaster Hole, unsupervised? Remember, I'd initially suggested taking you guys that way as it would have been a really fun trip for you, but I became very worried by the comments from your group that you did not have sufficient experience to safely exit the cave this way, so I suggested an alternative. Remember also, from the moment we met and it became clear that you were in the wrong place and unsure of the route, I immediately started thinking of ways that I could help you, regardless of the inconvenience it would cause me or the delay on an already long trip. Not once did I criticise your group, but instead tried to understand your experience and come up with a suitable option to make sure you had a good trip and got safely out.

You may well have been able to retrace your steps and get yourselves out, but many people would not be able to do that on their 1st or 2nd trip. The fact that you were in a stonking great passage, having expected to be in small passage, suggested that your leader's memory for the cave was not perfect, so it's a pretty fair assumption from the available information, that you were at a genuine risk of needing rescue, if left to your own devices. I was worried enough by the situation that I still remember it more than a decade later.


We all have to start somewhere and we all make mistakes and do stupid stuff along the way; I'm definitely no exception! So long as nothing goes too badly wrong and so long as we learn from it, then it's no big deal, but it doesn't make the stupid stuff we did any less stupid, nor does it mean that we should encourage others to make the same mistakes. As many have said on this thread, they have started out without a helmet etc, but would never recommend it now.

Either way, I'm very glad that you and your friends have continued to enjoy caving and have since introduced others to this great sport  :thumbsup:

Offline wiganexplorer

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Re: Who's the Helmet without the helmet???
« Reply #45 on: September 04, 2021, 01:44:15 am »
how many people wear a helmet just to look the same as everyone else and so that internet troll's don't have a go at them?  Rampgill is like walking down a corridor. the ceiling is solid and high enough that you won't bang your head unless your an idiot. Peer pressure only works on the insecure!!

Offline ChrisJC

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Re: Who's the Helmet without the helmet???
« Reply #46 on: September 04, 2021, 08:10:12 am »
how many people wear a helmet just to look the same as everyone else and so that internet troll's don't have a go at them?  Rampgill is like walking down a corridor. the ceiling is solid and high enough that you won't bang your head unless your an idiot. Peer pressure only works on the insecure!!

People don't wear a helmet 'to look the same as everybody else'. People wear helmets to protect their scalps from serious damage.

Mind you, perhaps if you can't understand the need for a helmet, there is little chance of serious damage.

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Offline moorebooks

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Re: Who's the Helmet without the helmet???
« Reply #47 on: September 04, 2021, 09:35:30 am »
how many people wear a helmet just to look the same as everyone else and so that internet troll's don't have a go at them?  Rampgill is like walking down a corridor. the ceiling is solid and high enough that you won't bang your head unless your an idiot. Peer pressure only works on the insecure!!

Using the same logic perhaps you shouldn't wear a seat belt in your car as most of the time its innneccessary !!

Bits do drop out of the roof in mines and  Rampgill being no exception - point of a helmet is to protect your head underground bit like insurance it generally never happens but when it does !! Plus of course the incoinvenience and risks to others who may have to rescue you

Offline undead crow

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Re: Who's the Helmet without the helmet???
« Reply #48 on: September 04, 2021, 11:17:29 am »
how many people wear a helmet just to look the same as everyone else and so that internet troll's don't have a go at them?  Rampgill is like walking down a corridor. the ceiling is solid and high enough that you won't bang your head unless your an idiot. Peer pressure only works on the insecure!!

 :o  :wall:  :chair: the first time you scalp yourself will be the time you wished you were wearing a helmet as for rampgill is just like walking down a corridor well there is a few spots that have heaps where the roof has fallen also you have folks that move the falls to one side so makes it look like nothing has happened

Offline legendrider

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Re: Who's the Helmet without the helmet???
« Reply #49 on: September 04, 2021, 11:45:31 am »
I will gladly take anyone in the Rampgill 'corridor' and point out where a moment's inattention (I can attest) has left scrapes of paint and fibreglass (fortunately, not skin, blood or hair) on a downwardly dragon's tooth. 

MARK

 

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