UK Caving

WHERE THE CAVES ARE - The Caving Regions => Mendip => Topic started by: Ed W on May 08, 2020, 10:02:26 am

Title: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: Ed W on May 08, 2020, 10:02:26 am
Given various threads elsewhere on this forum, I am interested in finding out what other southern cavers think of how they are being represented by the CSCC.  Personally I am somewhat disenchanted.  As an individual who voted for CROW in the national ballot, and a member of two CSCC clubs (at that time) who also used their group votes to support the motion, I am somewhat upset at the image that CSCC try to express that all southern cavers are anti-CROW.

I also feel that CSCC is failing to work within the democratic structures of BCA, it is of course OK to disagree (in fact healthy to do so) but from my point of view the CSCC is attempting to frustrate progress no matter what the wider caving community wants.

Finally I think representation within the CSCC is a joke, meetings struggle to be quorate and decisions are made by a very small number of representatives of a small number of the member clubs.  That there is no mechanism for representation of cavers outside the club structure is also, to my mind, unbelievable in the 21st Century.

I do not want to call into question the motives of the volunteers who give up their time for what is after all a thankless task.  I believe that they all do this form the best of motives.  However is it time for change within the CSCC?  Or are things fine and dandy just as they are (and have been since the 1960s)?
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: PeteHall on May 08, 2020, 11:12:26 am
As another Southern caver and a member of two CSCC clubs, I also do not feel represented by the CSCC.

Of those two clubs, the Cheddar was my first Mendip club and as a small club, I have over been pretty involved over the years that I have been a member. Less so recently, due to having young kids... That said, I tend to make it to the AGM and keep in touch socially with the members. The Cheddar is pretty democratic really,  we vote internally on contentious issues and invariably a progressive pro-access voice wins the day. We are also one of the few clubs who have a regular presence at most CSCC meetings,  so all in all,  I should be well represented. Unfortunately our club rep, one of the few volunteers prepared to give up his time to attend the meetings, holds very strong views that oppose the majority club view. While I don't think he would deliberately misrepresent the club, he is very quick to jump on a technicality,  that isn't directly opposing the club position,  but certainly doesn't support the spirit of the club view.

I know what you'll all be thinking,  just vote him out,  but who will take on the role? I, for one, live an hour from Cheddar and have a young family who need my time. Much as I love caving and want to help at a club, regional and national level,  family has to come first. Caving comes second and politics are at the back of the queue.

I have never engaged with my other club, the Wessex, on a political level, so I have no right to expect them to represent me. That said,  the Wessex CSCC rep knows my position well. I also think that most of the younger members who I cave with share the same views, however I am unsure how many of them, like me stick to caving and leave the politics to the older generation...
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: nearlywhite on May 08, 2020, 12:11:13 pm
*Disclaimer - I am not a southern caver despite having recently moved to Exeter, I assume there's a baptism or something I have to do down Swildons while my SRT kit is burnt  ;)

Out of interest would electing a regional representative (i.e. the head of cscc etc) direct to BCA be an acceptable notion? (was thinking this could leave the 'civil service' side of the cscc intact while getting people to actually vote on the representative side) Or would you change something else?
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: badger on May 08, 2020, 12:11:35 pm
regards less of your views if you are representing your club then it should be the club views presented not your own.
I would also say that one of my clubs "Wessex" I do not agree with every decision made, at the AGM several motions were put forward, some I voted against, however a majority voted for,
I also know that the wessex have voted against some off the CSCC decisions, Wessex direction taken from the wessex agm.
Like Pete says, if southern cavers want to change this cause they feel the CSCC is not representing them or there clubs then they need to get involved, and maybe we will see this happening, its very encouraging at BCA council level to see more and more younger people getting involved
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: andrewmc on May 08, 2020, 12:29:57 pm
*Disclaimer - I am not a southern caver despite having recently moved to Exeter, I assume there's a baptism or something I have to do down Swildons while my SRT kit is burnt  ;)

Exeter is Devon, and therefore entirely free of the influence of the CSCC (despite Exeter Uni SS being one of the founding clubs of CSCC) :P Plenty of SRT in Devon and Cornwall, although nearly all of it in mines... You probably have to go down Afton though for your ritual punishment :P
You get the fun of the DCUC instead (the region that CSCC presumably forgot when they suggested 8 representatives on BCA council would be enough for 2 per region!)
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: aricooperdavis on May 08, 2020, 12:36:52 pm
I can't speak for my club, but the CSCC certainly doesn't represent my views when it comes to CRoW.

I was embarrassed by the behaviour of many of the attendees at the last meeting I attended on behalf of my club, which left me disenchanted and reluctant to attend another. In retrospect I wish I had spoken up a bit more about it rather than sat idly by, but this being my first meeting I wasn't familiar with the proceedings and felt distinctly out of my comfort zone.

Looking over the minutes of that meeting (http://cscc.org.uk/wiki/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=documents:cscc_2018.05.19_agm_minutes_approved.pdf) I am surprised to see that we voted to mandate the CSCC's representative at an upcoming BCA meeting, as I don't remember doing that. Maybe my memory is failing me with age, or maybe I nipped out to hold my head in my hands for five minutes and missed it - which would explain why the number of voting attendees doesn't add up to the number of votes on those matters whereas it does for some other matters voted on in that meeting? This doesn't inspire confidence.

I don't think the access arrangements managed by the CSCC are effective compared to other regions access arrangements, and I don't see what's so special about Southern landownership that makes this necessary.

But I also don't want to have to go to another meeting, so I guess I'm part of the problem  :doubt:
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: mikem on May 08, 2020, 01:01:43 pm
CSCC only manage the caves that have a standard padlock on, the key for which can be borrowed from any of the clubs.
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: Ed W on May 08, 2020, 01:25:13 pm
Interesting views so far.  I totally agree with Badger, I have no problem with the CSCC putting forward views that are different to mine - that is democracy after all.  However my opinion is that in its current guise that the CSCC reflects the opinion of the few who regularly attend the meetings rather than the views of the members of the clubs that it is supposed to represent.

This is as much the fault of the wider southern caving community as the CSCC, since the vast majority of the members of the constituent clubs are clearly not ensuring that their club is being represented at meetings, let alone checking that their club is voting in lie with member's intent.  However, I think this is a circular argument, as my experience of CSCC meetings is very much that of aricooperdavis (albeit some years ago), and it is sad to see that this situation has not changed over the years.

Surely anything that can increase participation beyond the single digit voting attendance common at these meetings that has been the case for many years must be of advantage to the southern caving community?
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: aricooperdavis on May 08, 2020, 01:46:33 pm
CSCC only manage the caves that have a standard padlock on, the key for which can be borrowed from any of the clubs.

That is indeed the unsatisfactory arrangement that I refer to; both because it's considerably more restrictive than a Derbyshire key system, and because the CSCC hasn't managed to facilitate access to many Mendip caves (instead promoting the creation of limited companies not under the CSCCs control with complex access arrangements).
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: Oceanrower on May 08, 2020, 02:09:51 pm
In reply to Ed W.

Do you think the problem might be geographical in that the Mendips has a very large membership that lives nowhere near caves! I.e. the rest of the South of England.

For me to get to my club takes at least 2 1/2 hours and it's the nearest area to me. I assume that other areas have a much more local membership and so people are more likely to attend meetings.
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: mikem on May 08, 2020, 02:12:00 pm
Most of those existed before the CSCC did. The one place that was on a bolted system was Box Mines, which was regularly left open (generally not by cavers), & we know how that ended up...

The majority have not been locked at the request of cavers, but by landowners, & historically this has been padlocks, so that's what the owners now expect.

The mine shafts at charterhouse are also getting broken into at the moment, despite them mostly being vertical shafts that go nowhere (& this is open access land).
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: crickleymal on May 08, 2020, 02:14:24 pm
I find it interesting that no one from the CSCC has been on here to defend themselves.
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: mikem on May 08, 2020, 02:19:15 pm
Well, you have at least 5 CSCC members. The committee aren't interested in having anything to do with this forum.
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: droid on May 08, 2020, 04:12:37 pm
Could it be that the sometimes 'interesting' arguments on here have fomented this unwillingness to participate in this forum and the consequent 'Fuck you' attitude to BCA?

Asking for a friend..... ::)
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: NewStuff on May 08, 2020, 04:17:00 pm
Well, you have at least 5 CSCC members. The committee aren't interested in having anything to do with this forum.

That attitude, in and of itself, speaks volumes about why pretty much the rest of the caving population of this island is sick to the back teeth of them.
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: mikem on May 08, 2020, 04:34:54 pm
Well, the 5% who post regularly on here anyway. They would seem to be in the "silent majority"  :-\
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: NewStuff on May 08, 2020, 05:14:24 pm
Well, the 5% who post regularly on here anyway. They would seem to be in the "silent majority"  :-\
If you genuinely think that the majority of people agree with the few in the CSCC who are orchestrating all these shenanigans, I want some of what you're smoking.
There was a vote, and of those who cared enough to vote, the significant majority are in opposition to the current attitude of the CSCC members causing these issues. Most people simply don't care enough to vote, they just want to go caving.

Should the CSCC carry on with this sort of tactic then either people will stop caring altogether and give up on the BCA (As my club has), and just go f**king caving, or they'll actively seek removal of the CSCC, or replacement of the BCA (Me and my club will actively help with this option). It may take a year, it may take 5, but things carrying on as they were in the 40 years ago is simply not going to happen.
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: mikem on May 08, 2020, 05:49:07 pm
That's not remotely what it says.
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: Cap'n Chris on May 08, 2020, 05:51:33 pm
I find it interesting that no one from the CSCC has been on here to defend themselves.
[/quote
I find it interesting that no one from the CSCC has been on here to defend themselves.

You're assuming that they can read, write and own a computer. Major presumptions there.
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: Oceanrower on May 08, 2020, 05:58:25 pm
Well, the 5% who post regularly on here anyway. They would seem to be in the "silent majority"  :-\
If you genuinely think that the majority of people agree with the few in the CSCC who are orchestrating all these shenanigans, I want some of what you're smoking.
There was a vote, and of those who cared enough to vote, the significant majority are in opposition to the current attitude of the CSCC members causing these issues. Most people simply don't care enough to vote, they just want to go caving.

Should the CSCC carry on with this sort of tactic then either people will stop caring altogether and give up on the BCA (As my club has), and just go f**king caving, or they'll actively seek removal of the CSCC, or replacement of the BCA (Me and my club will actively help with this option). It may take a year, it may take 5, but things carrying on as they were in the 40 years ago is simply not going to happen.

It's a shame North Wales is so far from me.

Sounds like my kind of club...
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: mikem on May 08, 2020, 06:07:36 pm
Coz North Wales is well known for access (last para):
https://www.derbyscc.org.uk/caving/caves_northwales.php
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: NewStuff on May 08, 2020, 06:41:46 pm
Coz North Wales is well known for access (last para):
https://www.derbyscc.org.uk/caving/caves_northwales.php

As we're trying to do with the country in general, most clubs in North Wales have embraced opening up, and many members of many clubs frequently undertake trips with other clubs, in other clubs "stomping grounds".

After a lot of contentious issues, the issues are mostly gone, as people wised up and realised there was a way forward without all the lockchopping, and winding up. It may not have been the first choice for some clubs, but for the most part, it works.
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: Pitlamp on May 08, 2020, 08:32:56 pm
Well, the 5% who post regularly on here anyway. They would seem to be in the "silent majority"  :-\
If you genuinely think that the majority of people agree with the few in the CSCC who are orchestrating all these shenanigans, I want some of what you're smoking.
There was a vote, and of those who cared enough to vote, the significant majority are in opposition to the current attitude of the CSCC members causing these issues. Most people simply don't care enough to vote, they just want to go caving.

Should the CSCC carry on with this sort of tactic then either people will stop caring altogether and give up on the BCA (As my club has), and just go f**king caving, or they'll actively seek removal of the CSCC, or replacement of the BCA (Me and my club will actively help with this option). It may take a year, it may take 5, but things carrying on as they were in the 40 years ago is simply not going to happen.

I've not taken any sides in this discussion but, regarding the bit I highlighted in your above post, can I ask why you're involved in a discussion about an organisation that you don't seem to me a member of? Indeed, should you be involved?

Please don't think I'm trying to score any points against you personally; I'm really not. I'm just genuinely interested and I'm sure you do have reasons.
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: NewStuff on May 08, 2020, 08:55:09 pm
We were members (I'm sure we'll show up on an archived list of BCA member clubs on the Internet Archive or similar). Most of us have been in other clubs.
The BCA repeatedly capitulated and let itself be held hostage. We wanted nothing to do with that. We made a decision to leave the BCA as a result. We're just one small club, We don't much care if we're blacklisted (I've been casually and informally informed that is the case in certain area's). I suspect other will follow suit if this is allowed to carry on - The green cards only have so much pull, there's a limit to what people will put up with.

There was hope and things were looking positive in the last 12 months or so, until this last round of idiocy, but that is the last straw, and has scuppered any chances we'll ever rejoin if it remains in it's present form. Should the majority decide that something new needs to replace the BCA, something for the members, not a handful of people in one region, dictating to the whole country, then we will gladly assist wherever we can. We want to help caving as a whole, but we have a moral compass, and as a result, we will not be part of the BCA in it's current form. The Hunters may be the centre of the Mendip universe, it's not dictating caving and BCA matters for an organisation that covers the whole of the UK.
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: Pitlamp on May 08, 2020, 09:07:52 pm
Thanks for answering, in such considered detail, NewStuff.

I can't entirely agree with you but I do appreciate you sharing your thoughts.
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: Ed W on May 09, 2020, 09:52:33 am
Oceanrower said;
Quote
Do you think the problem might be geographical in that the Mendips has a very large membership that lives nowhere near caves! I.e. the rest of the South of England.

For me to get to my club takes at least 2 1/2 hours and it's the nearest area to me. I assume that other areas have a much more local membership and so people are more likely to attend meetings.

Thanks for the question.  My limited experience of CSCC meetings is that people are prepared to travel, my other half travelled 1.5 hours each way to meetings over the years she was secretary and club rep.  I think what puts people off is the atmosphere of the meetings which can feel very cliquey and intimidating if you are not in the "in crowd".  That the "in crowd" mostly live locally may well lead to exclusion of "outsiders" as much if not more than the time and distance required to travel to meetings - just my opinion though.
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: Ed W on June 27, 2020, 07:34:48 pm
Interesting development with a Wessex member's views https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=26665.0 (https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=26665.0)
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: Ed W on June 28, 2020, 10:04:35 am
From CSCC website, AGM now 25th July at the Hunters.

https://www.cscc.org.uk/wiki/doku.php?id=diary:start (https://www.cscc.org.uk/wiki/doku.php?id=diary:start)

Note that anyone can attend as an observer...
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: Fishes on June 28, 2020, 11:14:13 am
My views on the CSCC are that its a matter for it's member clubs.

If you are a southern caver and are not happy about the way it is run then get involved and do something about it.

Those of us who are not southern cavers (like me) or not prepared to put in the effort should probably step away from the keyboard and do something more constructive.

Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: Ed W on June 28, 2020, 11:23:23 am
Fishes,
I don't disagree with what you say.  I am a southern caver and a member of a CSCC member club.  I have also attended my fair share of CSCC meetings over the years.  The problem is that CSCC member clubs and their members are not getting involved (average voting attendance at meetings is usually only just quorate) and as such a small number of people are effectively running the agenda.

These posts are intended to highlight what is being done in the name of southern cavers and trying to get more of them to see that getting involved is important.
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: PeteHall on June 28, 2020, 11:33:21 am
Aside from everything else, the CSCC's response to the coronavirus situation has been woeful in my opinion.

While the DCA and CNCC have been negotiating on behalf of their members and providing regular updates, not a word from the CSCC, beyopnd quoting the bullshit MCR claim that most caves are closed.

Sorry, take that back. At 16.29 yesterday, the CSCC website Access News section was updated with a list of closed sites, though this has not been shared on their facebook page, or emailed to membership as far as I have seen so far.
https://cscc.org.uk/wiki/doku.php?id=access:access_news (https://cscc.org.uk/wiki/doku.php?id=access:access_news)
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: mikem on June 28, 2020, 01:51:00 pm
& missing Eastwater...
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: menacer on June 28, 2020, 07:17:24 pm
Just in case I havn't been controversial or contrarion enough for one day, I'll pass a few thoughts on this topic too.

From my perspective, there is little point attending a meeting when the core committees of Mendip are of one mind.

In general ( few exceptions) the prime prerequesite for candidates being elected into Mendip committees are,.
1. Martin Grass Sycophants
2. Alan Butcher yes man
3. CCC ltd tea boy.

For this reason, there can be no change from within. People have tried and generally give up quite quickly, there are other parts of the country/world that are far more welcoming to cave in. 

Usually a meeting is full of historical rhetoric,  ending with "well its the landowners wishes" as if that's the final matter and any debate up to that point is inconsequential.

Bizarrely its become quite a common used ploy in caving debates, not just limited to Mendip,  such as the Draenan chronicles and I note, is also being rolled out in the Covid debates across the entire country, in all caving regions. 

Generally though the evidence for this is never provided and when landowners are contacted privately about access to their caves, bypassing control freak access bodies, the land owners are open friendly and willing to provide access. ( Note this is based on my anecdotal experience, I'm sure there must be some cases where it hasn't been fruitful but that's life)

The recent access update on the CSCC website is a perfect example of Mendip negativity.

Everything you can't do but nothing you can do.

It states that all Mendip huts are closed so you can't get a cscc key for all the caves and makes no mention that its still ok to go caving if you happen to have a key.... And be under no illusion, lots of people have keys.
Also

A recent thread noted that Fairy cave quarry is open to climbers not cavers.
Yet the CSCC website states there is no access to caves in the quarry.
So, it cant be a landowner issue, it must be a an access control body issue.
Fair enough if people don't want to operate leader lead or give out keys for key caves, but no reason to deny access to open caves such as Balch, Fairy and Hillwithy, Hilliers.
Why is this? 

Every time you start to scratch under the surface off historical Mendip control access bodies, you always find the same people with same rhetoric.   

When cave entrances change owner, the same people always rush to be the first to contact the owner about " their wishes" ...
And funnily enough, out of the blue, the landowners, all independently, make the same rules about anti kids, anti professional caving, limiting group sizes, lock the cave, give the key control access to the same people, every time.
Its astonishing how many new  landowners have this independent epiphany, truly it is.
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: PeteHall on June 28, 2020, 07:39:45 pm
You're on a roll today  ;D

You may well be right, but I hope you are wrong about change. It's got to happen one day, one way or another...
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: droid on June 29, 2020, 02:11:55 am
You're on a roll today  ;D

You may well be right, but I hope you are wrong about change. It's got to happen one day, one way or another...

Someone needs to grow a pair, then.... ::)
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: mikem on June 29, 2020, 11:30:39 am
Is there anything in the BCA constitution that means a club has to be a member of the regional council where they are based, rather than the one that most aligns with their interests?
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: PeteHall on June 29, 2020, 12:06:12 pm
Is there anything in the BCA constitution that means a club has to be a member of the regional council where they are based, rather than the one that most aligns with their interests?
No.

But another regional body would not benefit the club in their own region.

A better question may be to ask if there is anything in the BCA constitution to prevent another regional council to be set up in the same region as an existing regional council...

Southern Caving Clubs Council perhaps?
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: Pete K on June 29, 2020, 12:10:16 pm
Southern Caving Association surely, there are more cavers to represent than just clubs.
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: PeteHall on June 29, 2020, 12:20:17 pm
Southern Caving Association? Splitters!
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: andrewmc on June 29, 2020, 12:22:12 pm
Is there anything in the BCA constitution that means a club has to be a member of the regional council where they are based, rather than the one that most aligns with their interests?

A club can be a member of multiple regional councils. The regional councils are (I think) free to refuse membership.
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: 2xw on June 29, 2020, 01:51:18 pm

A club can be a member of multiple regional councils. The regional councils are (I think) free to refuse membership.

It took us like 3 years to persuade the CNCC that Sheffield was, in fact, in the north
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: Fjell on June 29, 2020, 02:03:58 pm

A club can be a member of multiple regional councils. The regional councils are (I think) free to refuse membership.

It took us like 3 years to persuade the CNCC that Sheffield was, in fact, in the north

Only just according to my wife, and said grudgingly. She being born in the Leeds workhouse. I can see your problem as she is considered liberal where she comes from.
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: mrodoc on June 29, 2020, 02:18:01 pm
*Disclaimer - I am not a southern caver despite having recently moved to Exeter, I assume there's a baptism or something I have to do down Swildons while my SRT kit is burnt  ;)

Out of interest would electing a regional representative (i.e. the head of cscc etc) direct to BCA be an acceptable notion? (was thinking this could leave the 'civil service' side of the cscc intact while getting people to actually vote on the representative side) Or would you change something else?

One of them is chairman of BCA!
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: mikem on June 29, 2020, 02:31:40 pm
I'm pretty sure setting up more than one body in the same region wouldn't work, but if all the clubs opted out of the council, then it would be defunct & a replacement could be brought in.
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: PeteHall on July 01, 2020, 04:58:39 pm
Instead of (or as well as  ;D ) grumbling on here, why not leave the CSCC a review on their facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/CouncilOfSouthernCavingClubs/reviews/ (https://www.facebook.com/CouncilOfSouthernCavingClubs/reviews/)
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: JoshW on July 01, 2020, 05:00:51 pm
Instead of (or as well as  ;D ) grumbling on here, why not leave the CSCC a review on their facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/CouncilOfSouthernCavingClubs/reviews/ (https://www.facebook.com/CouncilOfSouthernCavingClubs/reviews/)

That's so incredibly petty. I love it.
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: PeteHall on July 01, 2020, 05:06:49 pm
well they are more likely to read and take notice  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: braveduck on July 01, 2020, 05:42:35 pm
Your comment was removed very quickly ,they must be in denial or worse !
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: JoshW on July 01, 2020, 05:54:08 pm
Your comment was removed very quickly ,they must be in denial or worse !

Pete's comment is still there, but other comments have sprung up with more positive views on CSCC
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: Ed on July 01, 2020, 11:10:27 pm

A club can be a member of multiple regional councils. The regional councils are (I think) free to refuse membership.

It took us like 3 years to persuade the CNCC that Sheffield was, in fact, in the north

Nooo...... Most of the Dales aren't even Northern

Yorkshire the wrong side of the Tees
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: mikem on July 02, 2020, 07:53:10 am
Not much caving north of the Tees (plenty of mines)
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: Cavematt on July 02, 2020, 08:17:06 am
It was a little embarrassing that the CNCC, pre-2014, was entrenched in the view that Sheffield wasn't sufficiently northern to become a member club. However, in 2015 we dealt with that crazy situation and enabled any club with an involvement in northern caving to become a member. After all, if people cave regularly up north why shouldn't they have a say in the northern regional council? Not sure how other regional councils work in that respect. Could a northern club join CSCC if they cave regularly down in Mendips?

As for caves north of the Tees, I suspect Blackshiver will be able to add something on that... Fairy Holes... Hudgill Burn... Cutthroat Caverns (not sure if that is technically north of the Tees). It's the place to be for new discovery these days don't you know ;D
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: Badlad on July 02, 2020, 09:29:21 am
That's one of the reasons they had to change - and they did  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: A_Northerner on July 02, 2020, 09:40:19 am
It was a little embarrassing that the CNCC, pre-2014, was entrenched in the view that Sheffield wasn't sufficiently northern to become a member club.

We were all set to send Sean Bean up there to sort you out, try telling Ned Stark he's not Northern!

Though based on his track record in films and TV he'd probably have died.
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: JoshW on July 02, 2020, 09:53:31 am
It was a little embarrassing that the CNCC, pre-2014, was entrenched in the view that Sheffield wasn't sufficiently northern to become a member club.

We were all set to send Sean Bean up there to sort you out, try telling Ned Stark he's not Northern!

Though based on his track record in films and TV he'd probably have died.

Still fuming he didn't play a bigger part in GOT. that one hurt more than most.
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: mikem on July 02, 2020, 02:04:52 pm
Not much caving north of the Tees (plenty of mines)
There's also all of Scotland, but still a lot less than there is to the south.

Well, Sheffield is a well known climbing base for the Peak, rather than Yorkshire...
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: A_Northerner on July 02, 2020, 02:11:30 pm
Well, Sheffield is a well known climbing base for the Peak, rather than Yorkshire...

As is Manchester.
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: mikem on July 02, 2020, 02:29:07 pm
But that's Lancashire, so doesn't count  :tease:
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: 2xw on July 02, 2020, 02:32:33 pm
But that's Lancashire, so doesn't count  :tease:

This is the most controversial thing you've ever said mods can you ban him
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: Ed on July 02, 2020, 03:18:05 pm
But that's Lancashire, so doesn't count  :tease:

Yep. It's Southern and Western - should join CSCC
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: 2xw on July 02, 2020, 03:31:20 pm
 Based on historical precedent I guess Lancashire would join the Welsh
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: mikem on July 02, 2020, 03:52:31 pm
Although the House of Lancaster wasn't very popular there...
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: JoshW on July 02, 2020, 04:11:12 pm
Although the House of Lancaster wasn't very popular there...

read this as house of lannister.. Determined to turn this into a GOT thread
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: mikem on July 02, 2020, 04:23:46 pm
More like a GoT plot!
https://m.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/westeros-europe_n_7565694
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: ZombieCake on July 02, 2020, 05:22:47 pm
Quote
Determined to turn this into a GOT thread

Can I vote for that nice lady with the pet dragons as rep for something?
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: 2xw on July 02, 2020, 05:42:29 pm
Part of GOT was inspired by the wars of the roses

Mendips are clearly the freys
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: TheBitterEnd on July 02, 2020, 06:30:51 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74bRnBo1c14
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: A_Northerner on July 06, 2020, 10:22:28 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74bRnBo1c14

These days if you say you're a caver you get arrested and thrown in jail.
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: JoshW on July 06, 2020, 11:39:12 am
Part of GOT was inspired by the wars of the roses

Mendips are clearly the freys

This would be a great separate thread, abusing each caving region by designating them a house from GOT..
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: mikem on July 06, 2020, 12:45:16 pm
That could be construed as racially divisive  :tease:
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: Cap'n Chris on July 06, 2020, 01:57:48 pm
Pretty sure I know what at least one or more of the C's stand for.
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: dugadig on July 08, 2020, 04:18:32 pm
Pretty sure I know what at least one or more of the C's stand for.
Yeh that could be a fun game... Most amusing alternatives for the acronym CSCC.  ;D  :spank:
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: Ed W on July 08, 2020, 07:12:09 pm
In case anyone is interested the following was posted on the CSCC mailing list yesterday;

Members of CSCC,
There will be a CSCC Zoom meeting Wednesday 15 July 2020
Link to join zoom meeting will be forwarded nearer the meeting.
Frank Tully
Secretary CSCC

To which was attached the following agenda;

Agenda for the General Meeting
19:00 Wednesday 15 July 2020,
Online Zoom meeting,
Zoom link will be emailed nearer the meeting date.
1 Attendance
2 Apologies for absence
3 Approval minutes,
Minutes of meeting 15 Feb 2020 not available yet.
4 Chairman's report Alan Butcher
5 Secretary's report Frank Tully
6 Conservation & access officer's report Les Williams
6.1 Masbury Swallet Ongoing
6.2 Loxton Cavern Ongoing
6.3 Ubley Warren Ongoing
6.4 Cow hole Ongoing
6.5 Elm Cave Ongoing
6.6 CSCC Locks Ongoing
6.7 Access Database GP to have ability to add caves to database.
DC to write some code to allow GP to add caves.
7 Treasurer's report
8 Training officer's report
9 Equipment officer's report Andrew Atkinson.
10 BCA rep report
Report on Proposals to BCA AGM, BCA AGM – Sunday 11 October 2020 Priddy Village Hall,
Deadline for submissions 23:59 Sat 01 Aug 2020
Next BCA Executive meeting Saturday 18th July 2020
11 Webmasters report David Cooke
12 Regional registry officer’s report Alan Gray
13 Any other Business
14 Forthcoming events
10 - 11 October 2020 BCA AGM & Weekend of caving related events
15 Dates of meetings 2019-2020
 Saturday 14
th September 2019 (GM) 10:30 Hunters
 Saturday 23
th November 2019 (GM) 10:30 Hunters
 Saturday 15
th February 2020 (GM) 10:30 Hunters
 Saturday 18th May 2020 (AGM) 10:30 Hunters

As yet nothing has been said as to whether this General Meeting has any impact on the previously announced rescheduled AGM on 25th July, which unlike the above meeting is shown on the CSCC website (https://cscc.org.uk/wiki/doku.php?id=documents:start (https://cscc.org.uk/wiki/doku.php?id=documents:start))

Note that historically anyone can attend a CSCC meeting, but only nominated representatives of member clubs get a vote.

Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: Cap'n Chris on July 09, 2020, 08:15:18 am
Would proposing a vote of no confidence on the grounds of  being unfit for purpose meet with approval from anyone?
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: PeteHall on July 09, 2020, 11:35:21 am
I would be very interested to see how this might play out, though I suspect that the motion would not pass as those who turn up and vote are unlikely to support it.

That said, if it is a Zoom meeting, there may be better attendance   but club reps would need to agree this with their membership ahead of the meeting. Or at least I hope that they would.

If a vote of no confidence was raised without prior notice or discussion at club level,  I would expect reps to either oppose it on the usual grounds of maintenaning the status quo, or otherwise to abstain. Personally, if I were representing any of my clubs without a specific discussion on the subject, I would feel obliged to abstain on something as controversial as this.
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: Judi Durber on July 09, 2020, 12:09:28 pm
In case you are not aware who the member clubs are:

Aberystwyth Caving Club
Antares Caving Club
Avon Scouts Caving Section
Axbridge Caving Group
Bracknell & District Caving Club
Brighton Explorers Club
Bristol and District Caving Club
Bristol Exploration Club
Buckfastleigh Caving Club
Cerberus Spelæological Society
Cheddar Caving Club
Combined Services Caving Association
Compass Exploration Group
Dudley Caving Club
Education in the Environment Caving Club
Essex County Scout Caving Team
Exeter University Speleology Society
Frome Caving Group
Gloucester Speleological Society
Gosport Caving Club
Greater London South Caving Club
Hades Caving Club
Hampshire Scouts Caving Club
Keyhole Caving Club
Lost World Caving Club
Mendip Caving Group
Mendip Nature Research Committee
Moles Caving Club
Newbury and District Caving Club
Old Matey's Caving Club
Oxford University Cave Club
Shepton Mallet Caving Club
Shropshire Scouts Caving Team
South Bristol Speleological Society
Southern Professional and conservation cavers
Southsea Spelæological Society
University of Bristol Spelæological Society
Wealden Cave and Mine Society
Wessex Cave Club
West Sussex Caving Club
Wimps and Y-Anchors Caving Club
White Rabbit Caving Club (2016)

https://cscc.org.uk/wiki/doku.php?id=about:member_clubs (https://cscc.org.uk/wiki/doku.php?id=about:member_clubs)
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: Sid on July 09, 2020, 01:13:33 pm
As a resident of Frome when was the last time Frome Caving Group were at the meeting?

Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: PeteHall on July 09, 2020, 02:18:23 pm
All minutes are here with details of who has attended: https://cscc.org.uk/wiki/doku.php?id=documents:start (https://cscc.org.uk/wiki/doku.php?id=documents:start)

Doesn't look like Frome have been once in the last 10 years, along with quite a number of others...

Furthermore, I believe that there has only been one quorate meeting in the last 3 years.

Ultimately, we southern cavers who disagree with the way it is run, generally have ourselves to blame for not engaging.

The fact that those outside the clique who have tried to engage have become disheartened and given up goes a long way to explaining why people don't bother, but if enough "new blood" got involved they would be able to support each other and hopefully be able to start moving the wheel of progress.

This needs engagement at club level and a rep who attends meetings, reports back to the club and encourages discussion of the membership, in order to properly represent the cub views. Some clubs do this already. I know that both my clubs are usually in attendance at CSCC meetings, and at least one of those clubs has held internal votes on contentious issues, though it is not always clear how the representative have voted.e...

I have therefore submitted the following proposal to the upcoming CSCC AGM

Quote
Proposal:
That the CSCC record in the minutes of each meeting the direction in which each voting member casts their vote in all cases where the vote is not unanimous.

Reason:
In the interests on transparency and accountability, it is important that club members not in attendance are aware of how their club vote has been cast.

Peter Hall
Cheddar Caving Club member
Wessex Cave Club member
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: MJenkinson on July 09, 2020, 02:48:44 pm
Just to point out that from my POV, that more engagement by clubs has led to positive change in the CNCC, and that then drives more interation and engagement.

Someones just going to have to take the plunge / pain and start the ball rolling if people want change down there.
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: dugadig on July 09, 2020, 09:56:44 pm
Wimps and Y-Anchors Caving Club? Really? Wow!   ;D
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: PeteHall on July 09, 2020, 09:59:21 pm
There are a couple of clubs on the list, formed specifically to get an extra (pretty much individual) vote...

This was one of my reasons for voting to remove the club vote from the BCA.
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: royfellows on July 09, 2020, 09:59:43 pm
In case you are not aware who the member clubs are:

Aberystwyth Caving Club....
......


How come?
Surely this comes under Cambrian
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: 2xw on July 09, 2020, 10:07:35 pm
In case you are not aware who the member clubs are:

Aberystwyth Caving Club....
......


How come?
Surely this comes under Cambrian

Maybe they caved there loads or had a particular interest. Sheffield is a member of both CNCC and DCA, I'm sure other clubs will be similar
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: Graigwen on July 10, 2020, 09:24:21 am
In case you are not aware who the member clubs are:

Aberystwyth Caving Club....
......


How come?
Surely this comes under Cambrian

Historically Aber always did a fair bit of caving in Mendip, although they mainly operated in South Wales and mines in mid Wales.

.
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: Jenny P on July 10, 2020, 02:32:12 pm
When clubs join BCA they are asked, among other things, where their main caving interests/areas are and these used to be recorded on the list of BCA clubs and sent out each year to regional secretaries so they could check that their member clubs were paid-up members of BCA.  (Some regions require that their clubs are paid-up members of BCA before they are allowed to join.)  The list didn't include any details about the club or any contact details for it, just the name and the regions where they said their caving interests were.

It always puzzled me, when I was Secretary of DCA, that I'd come across clubs on the list who claimed to be mainly interested in Derbyshire but they'd never approached DCA for membership and, before the days of websites, etc. they wouldn't have been sent any information from DCA.  Occasionally, if they seemed to be a newly formed club, I'd ask Wendy for their details so I could contact them and ask if they'd like to join DCA - and very often the answer was yes, but they hadn't known about regional councils, and they were quite pleased to join DCA as it cost them nothing if they were members of BCA.

Does CSCC's constitution still say something on the lines of "... a club becomes a member by expressing a wish to do so ..."?  I seem to recall it did say something like that once.
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: PeteHall on July 10, 2020, 02:46:07 pm
Quote
5. A club becomes a member club by signifying to the Council its wish to do so and paying the appropriate subscription for the membership sought. Membership shall be conditional on acceptance by the Council.

https://cscc.org.uk/wiki/doku.php?id=about:constitution (https://cscc.org.uk/wiki/doku.php?id=about:constitution)
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: Ed W on July 12, 2020, 04:48:32 pm
Link for the CSCC Zoom meeting on Wednesday and agenda now circulated through the CSCC mailing list, but no info on the CSCC Website or Facebook page.

Anyone can attend the meeting as an observer, but only properly sanctioned club reps get a vote.

I have not put the meeting link on here, but happy to supply to anyone interested in seeing what actually happens in those mysterious dark rooms round the back of the Hunters...
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: Ed W on July 14, 2020, 07:04:55 pm
Minutes of the Feb CSCC meeting now available online with a whole 24 hours till the next meeting...

https://cscc.org.uk/wiki/doku.php?id=documents:start (https://cscc.org.uk/wiki/doku.php?id=documents:start)
Title: Re: What are your views on the CSCC?
Post by: PeteHall on July 14, 2020, 08:23:07 pm
Quote
Questions and proposals for the forthcoming BCA AGM
AB There are weakness in the current BCA processes which appear to have not been through
properly. We need to proposes changes which will address these weaknesses.

Proposals from AB to the meeting:
1 Now BCA has got rid on the caving clubs vote, BCA needs to add back in caving club’s representation. I suggest we double the number of club representatives on council.
2 Need to clarify the BCA manual of operations, regarding the voting to elect unopposed positions. CSCC propose that uncontested applicants are deemed elected.
3 Re-instate the P&I standing committee to streamline BCA council meetings.
4 Where if a member is censured for bullying, the member is not allowed to attend the next council meeting, the intent of this is to stop the member defending their actions and in effect continuing the attack.

AB to draft the detailed proposals.
They will then be presented to the BCA secretary.
Deadline for submissions to the BCA AGM 4 April 2020

Interestingly, it looks like Alan Butcher was tasked by the CSCC with wording the proposals and submitting to BCA, without the need for further review by the CSCC. However it is not clear whether or not those at the meeting supported the proposals, or agreed to the route to submission.

There are considerable differences between the proposals discussed by those at the meeting and the proposals submitted.
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