Author Topic: topic split - Last night of the Proms and Patriotism  (Read 2667 times)

Offline Fishes

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Re: topic split - Last night of the Proms and Patriotism
« Reply #75 on: September 16, 2021, 08:33:21 pm »
Two empires, both guilty of unspeakable things in their time. Both should be remembered for what they were rather than celebrated under the cover of patriotism and tradition.

Offline sinker

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Re: topic split - Last night of the Proms and Patriotism
« Reply #76 on: September 16, 2021, 08:44:00 pm »
Two empires, both guilty of unspeakable things in their time. Both should be remembered for what they were rather than celebrated under the cover of patriotism and tradition.

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Offline royfellows

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Re: topic split - Last night of the Proms and Patriotism
« Reply #77 on: September 16, 2021, 09:10:15 pm »
You should have stayed out. What happens to something that doesn't get fed?
Not sure about them 'winning' either.
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Offline ChrisJC

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Re: topic split - Last night of the Proms and Patriotism
« Reply #78 on: September 16, 2021, 09:30:24 pm »

And what does being proud of being 'British' even mean? 

I can elaborate on that:
- I am proud to be part of a society where I can criticise the government without fear of reprisal (compare China, Russia, Belaurus, Turkey for a start).
- People are free to study without regard to gender (compare a good part of the islamic world)
- People generally respect the law and the law enforcement agencies.
- The electricity and water that come to my house do so reliably.
- We have a world class health service that is free at the point of consumption.
- We are free to change our rulers every 4-5 years.
- We have a free press.
- Our society took on the Nazi regime at huge cost. And prevailed.
- I am proud that our society allowed the flourishing of such luminaries as Newton, Maxwell, Graham-Bell, Swan, Darwin, Sophie Wilson, Whittle.
- I am proud that our legal system is among the best in the world.
- I am proud that our society allows people of all sexualities to live freely without fear of reprisal.

And the list goes on.

I for one am incredibly grateful that I live at this point in history and in this society. And I am proud of everything that my forefathers have achieved.

Of course, you can pick holes in everything I say. I feel sorry for you, you must be such a positive person.

Chris.
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Offline pwhole

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Re: topic split - Last night of the Proms and Patriotism
« Reply #79 on: September 16, 2021, 09:47:59 pm »
I also agree with and am equally proud of all those points above - I just don't like patriotic music or flag-waving, mainly as I think it's crude, and makes me feel like I'm in one of those other countries you mentioned when I hear it, so I turned it over. It seems like a reflex event that can't be stopped for sentimental reasons, rather than one that is actually necessary. I wonder if the Proms organisers have any idea of the shitstorm they've caused here? :)

Offline aardgoose

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Re: topic split - Last night of the Proms and Patriotism
« Reply #80 on: September 16, 2021, 10:00:32 pm »
Proud of things you didn't achieve and many things that the current government is set on destroying.

It has underfunded the legal system to such an extent that criminal cases are delayed years, there aren't sufficient courts and there aren't enough criminal lawyers to represent the parties involved.

The government is intent of rigging the electoral system, and taking control of the electoral commission. It stokes hostility to immigrants at every opportunity. It enacts policies that hurt the poor and disabled. It prevents parliament from exercising oversight of its actions.

Appreciate the good things, yes, of course, but pride? What have you or I done to create those things?

I would like to be positive about this country, but it is not in a good place.  I see the country being destroyed by the most evil and corrupt UK government in my lifetime. A government acting against its citizens, and creating an internal enemy of the 'woke'* to justify its authoritarian policies.

Those 'good things' are under threat, and the biggest threat is the UK government.



Offline Fishes

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Re: topic split - Last night of the Proms and Patriotism
« Reply #81 on: September 16, 2021, 10:01:39 pm »
I celebrate many of the things you are proud of. I don't see them as uniquely British though.


Offline Oceanrower

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Re: topic split - Last night of the Proms and Patriotism
« Reply #82 on: September 16, 2021, 10:02:19 pm »
As far as I am aware, the LNATP is an event that you either (1) get a ticket to or (2) watch on TV.

There may be other options I haven’t considered but I’m pretty sure that covers most situations.

If you don’t like it, don’t buy a fucking ticket or turn off the telly!

Offline RobinGriffiths

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Re: topic split - Last night of the Proms and Patriotism
« Reply #83 on: September 16, 2021, 10:46:27 pm »
I've just put my boot through the telly and am sending the bill to Nadine Dories.

Offline Fulk

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Re: topic split - Last night of the Proms and Patriotism
« Reply #84 on: September 16, 2021, 11:06:31 pm »
Hi ChrisJC, I tend to agree with most of the points you made, nevertheless:

‘I am proud that our society allows people of all sexualities to live freely without fear of reprisal.’

Is that really the case? I have the feeling that people who aren’t ‘red-blooded heterosexuals’ ( i.e. LGBGT people) are abused right left and centre.

And is our legal system the best in the world? Is it not predicated on who is the cleverest barrister, rather than what is the truth of the situation? (Not that I've ever been in court, so that's mere heresay.)
« Last Edit: September 16, 2021, 11:27:29 pm by Fulk »

Offline mikem

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Re: topic split - Last night of the Proms and Patriotism
« Reply #85 on: September 17, 2021, 07:40:15 am »
It's generally biased towards who has the most money, but that is the case in most of the world.

Funnily enough I am reading a book called The Day Before Yesterday, published in 1964 & edited by Noel streatfeild. It's about the experiences of lots of different people 50 years earlier, so just before the Great War, including chapters by a boy miner & a cavalryman in India. In the introduction to the latter the editor quotes two lines of the hymn in question followed by: "But this growing feeling that Britain was the mother country, with much of her family living far across the seas, made the British deny in their hearts that they belonged to Europe. Europe was a playground and holiday spot for the rich, and the idle, and though part of the same continent to which they were geographically attached, it's goings-on (often very peculiar by British standards) were no great concern of theirs."

Offline ttxela2

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Re: topic split - Last night of the Proms and Patriotism
« Reply #86 on: September 17, 2021, 09:35:00 am »


Appreciate the good things, yes, of course, but pride? What have you or I done to create those things?



Well.... the good things weren't created overnight by a single benevolent historical character. There were undoubtedly leading lights in all these matters but they were supported by a host of others to a greater or lesser degree, even down to those whose contribution amounted to no more than not opposing them.

As others have pointed out many of these things are facing an uncertain future. It's a developing picture in which we all play a part to some degree even if we are not at the forefront.

Offline Mrs Trellis

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Re: topic split - Last night of the Proms and Patriotism
« Reply #87 on: September 17, 2021, 03:00:03 pm »
As far as I am aware, the LNATP is an event that you either (1) get a ticket to or (2) watch on TV.

There may be other options I haven’t considered but I’m pretty sure that covers most situations.

If you don’t like it, don’t buy a fucking ticket or turn off the telly!

All Proms are broadcast live on BBC Radio 3. The downside is you can't see the flags being waved.
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Offline aardgoose

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Re: topic split - Last night of the Proms and Patriotism
« Reply #88 on: September 17, 2021, 04:09:48 pm »
Quote
‘I am proud that our society allows people of all sexualities to live freely without fear of reprisal.’

You support a government that enacted section 28, opposed gay marriage (it only passed on votes from the opposition), the new 'Culture Secretary' opposed it, the current "prime" minster is openly homophobic.

UK democracy is under threat, and is certainly broken. I am seriously fearful about the future of this country, and my safety in it. You and others say we should look forward, and not agonise about the past, fine, but I don't where we are heading.

The future is what terrifies me, because this country is heading backward in terms of rights and freedoms. Where the Goebbelesque 'Will of the People' is used to justify the destruction of what little good remains in this country. You only have to look at Hungry or Poland to see where this is going, and they haven't hit the bottom yet.

Patriotism is used as a weapon, the national flag is used as a political symbol, to me it represents the worst of this country, the antediluvian bigots of the Tory party, the crypto fascist UKIP, EDL etc. 

 A patriot would not support the current government.The enemies of the UK would though, and do.

Offline Paul Marvin

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Re: topic split - Last night of the Proms and Patriotism
« Reply #89 on: September 17, 2021, 05:18:08 pm »

And what does being proud of being 'British' even mean? 

I can elaborate on that:
- I am proud to be part of a society where I can criticise the government without fear of reprisal (compare China, Russia, Belaurus, Turkey for a start).
- People are free to study without regard to gender (compare a good part of the islamic world)
- People generally respect the law and the law enforcement agencies.
- The electricity and water that come to my house do so reliably.
- We have a world class health service that is free at the point of consumption.
- We are free to change our rulers every 4-5 years.
- We have a free press.
- Our society took on the Nazi regime at huge cost. And prevailed.
- I am proud that our society allowed the flourishing of such luminaries as Newton, Maxwell, Graham-Bell, Swan, Darwin, Sophie Wilson, Whittle.
- I am proud that our legal system is among the best in the world.
- I am proud that our society allows people of all sexualities to live freely without fear of reprisal.

And the list goes on.

I for one am incredibly grateful that I live at this point in history and in this society. And I am proud of everything that my forefathers have achieved.

Of course, you can pick holes in everything I say. I feel sorry for you, you must be such a positive person.

Chris.


Dont forget North Korea Chris !
I dont know where I am going, but will know where I am when I get there.

Offline mch

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Re: topic split - Last night of the Proms and Patriotism
« Reply #90 on: September 17, 2021, 05:48:07 pm »

And what does being proud of being 'British' even mean? 

I can elaborate on that:
- I am proud to be part of a society where I can criticise the government without fear of reprisal (compare China, Russia, Belaurus, Turkey for a start).
- People are free to study without regard to gender (compare a good part of the islamic world)
- People generally respect the law and the law enforcement agencies.
- The electricity and water that come to my house do so reliably.
- We have a world class health service that is free at the point of consumption.
- We are free to change our rulers every 4-5 years.
- We have a free press.
- Our society took on the Nazi regime at huge cost. And prevailed.
- I am proud that our society allowed the flourishing of such luminaries as Newton, Maxwell, Graham-Bell, Swan, Darwin, Sophie Wilson, Whittle.
- I am proud that our legal system is among the best in the world.
- I am proud that our society allows people of all sexualities to live freely without fear of reprisal.

And the list goes on.

I for one am incredibly grateful that I live at this point in history and in this society. And I am proud of everything that my forefathers have achieved.

Of course, you can pick holes in everything I say. I feel sorry for you, you must be such a positive person.

Chris.


Presumably you haven't heard of the Health & Social Care Bill currently passing through parliament which will drive the last nail into the coffin of the NHS? You might want to start saving now for the fast-looming day when you have to pay privately for your healthcare and the UK goes the same way as the  USA with paying for hospital bills the biggest cause of bankruptcy in the latter.

Offline ChrisJC

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Re: topic split - Last night of the Proms and Patriotism
« Reply #91 on: September 17, 2021, 06:49:33 pm »
Quote
‘I am proud that our society allows people of all sexualities to live freely without fear of reprisal.’

You support a government that enacted section 28, opposed gay marriage (it only passed on votes from the opposition), the new 'Culture Secretary' opposed it, the current "prime" minster is openly homophobic.

UK democracy is under threat, and is certainly broken. I am seriously fearful about the future of this country, and my safety in it. You and others say we should look forward, and not agonise about the past, fine, but I don't where we are heading.

The future is what terrifies me, because this country is heading backward in terms of rights and freedoms. Where the Goebbelesque 'Will of the People' is used to justify the destruction of what little good remains in this country. You only have to look at Hungry or Poland to see where this is going, and they haven't hit the bottom yet.

Patriotism is used as a weapon, the national flag is used as a political symbol, to me it represents the worst of this country, the antediluvian bigots of the Tory party, the crypto fascist UKIP, EDL etc. 

 A patriot would not support the current government.The enemies of the UK would though, and do.

You might not support the current government, but there are many for whom it is the best of a bad bunch. I can sense a somewhat polarised bitterness / hatred coming through.

Presumably all of the other nationalists are just as bad?, like the SNP, Plaid Cymru, Sinn Fein? Have you ever been outside this country and noticed the much more prevalent symbols of national identity elsewhere? It disappoints me that we don't do it more.

And I fail to understand how you think democracy is broken. Have you heard of Russia or China? You have an opportunity to vote in a couple of years without fear of being shot, beaten up, or ignored. You could even stand yourself with the same things applying. Or you could just descend into a spiral of despair.

Presumably you haven't heard of the Health & Social Care Bill currently passing through parliament which will drive the last nail into the coffin of the NHS? You might want to start saving now for the fast-looming day when you have to pay privately for your healthcare and the UK goes the same way as the  USA with paying for hospital bills the biggest cause of bankruptcy in the latter.

I don't know the ins and outs of it. But I do know the cost of the NHS is (and has been for decades) rising way faster than inflation.
Have a read of this:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-42572110
It is clearly not possible to keep just paying more and more. Something has to be done. I don't know what, but I do know it won't be popular!

Chris.


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Offline Paul Marvin

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Re: topic split - Last night of the Proms and Patriotism
« Reply #92 on: September 17, 2021, 06:58:15 pm »
As they say you can keep some of the people happy some of the time, but not all of the people happy all of the time   :wall:  ;D
I dont know where I am going, but will know where I am when I get there.

Offline RobinGriffiths

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Re: topic split - Last night of the Proms and Patriotism
« Reply #93 on: September 17, 2021, 07:30:47 pm »
I'd say the non-English home nations nationalism was more of an anti-Union thing, with a bit of English bashing thrown in.

Offline pwhole

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Re: topic split - Last night of the Proms and Patriotism
« Reply #94 on: September 17, 2021, 07:54:37 pm »
I'm pro-union - abolish the lot IMO. It's Great Britain and that's it. Or just Britain if we're still up for the downgrade :)

Offline ChrisJC

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Re: topic split - Last night of the Proms and Patriotism
« Reply #95 on: September 18, 2021, 10:49:27 am »
I'm pro-union - abolish the lot IMO. It's Great Britain and that's it. Or just Britain if we're still up for the downgrade :)

I believe the Great part of Great Britain is in juxtaposition with Brittany (France), aka Little Britain.

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Offline Fishes

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Re: topic split - Last night of the Proms and Patriotism
« Reply #96 on: September 18, 2021, 02:32:40 pm »
we don't do it more.

I don't know the ins and outs of it. But I do know the cost of the NHS is (and has been for decades) rising way faster than inflation.
Have a read of this:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-42572110
It is clearly not possible to keep just paying more and more. Something has to be done. I don't know what, but I do know it won't be popular!

Chris.

Surely there is plenty of money available for the NHS now that we have that extra £350 000 000 a week. Our leaders wouldn't lie to us, would they?

Offline Fjell

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Re: topic split - Last night of the Proms and Patriotism
« Reply #97 on: September 18, 2021, 03:51:45 pm »
The current 2021-7 budget and recovery fund would have nearly doubled the UK’s net contribution to well more than £350mln. It annoys other countries in NW Europe. No-one likes to mention it because no-one wants it discussed in case it upsets the locals.

Polly ticks.

For LOLS I am sat here in hospital listening to my dad burbling about nuclear attack boat design. I think the news might have set him off. Uniquely, in amongst the inane babble is actual expertise. The French really are comically high maintenance.

Offline RobinGriffiths

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Re: topic split - Last night of the Proms and Patriotism
« Reply #98 on: September 19, 2021, 10:02:36 pm »
Everyone can at least agree about the French!

 

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