Access lost to Ogof Carno

[NigR]

Actually, he can't, CROW land has very limited rights and only a very small number of caves in Devon, Mendip, South Wales or the Peak are actually on access land (the situation in Yorkshire is somewhat different, but there are still many caves that aren't).

FFS, what is wrong with people on here? Can't you tell when someone is being facetious? Nobody wants to go sunbathing in Duncan's garden but they might want to go down a cave on a remote section of hillside if he owns the land it is situated upon. The point that David is trying to make is that if you can walk to the entrance (NOT through Duncan's garden!) then you should be able to go down the cave. Understand?

Not sure where you are based, Mike but I've lived here in South Wales for 33 years and I can assure you that there are loads and loads of caves on Open Access land and more are being discovered on a regular basis.

Just to emphasise, all of this is ABSOLUTELY, UTTERLY and TOTALLY of NO relevance WHATSOEVER to the subject of this thread as Carno is NOT on Open Access land.

 

[Alex]

I made the exact same point Duncan made a few months ago and got the same silly backgarden response. This debate is pointless nothing ever comes from it I think we should just give up.


P.s. If your a topless female model your more than welcome to sunbathe in my yard.

 

[Les W]

P.s. If your a topless female model your more than welcome to sunbathe in my yard.

But Alex, you live in the frozen norf, there's no sunbathing to be had there...  :tease:

 

[NigR]

This debate is pointless nothing ever comes from it I think we should just give up.

However, isn't it interesting how it always provokes such a vehement response (usually from the same people)? Fear of what the future might hold, perhaps?

P.s. If your a topless female model your more than welcome to sunbathe in my yard.

Come digging with us again and I'll see what I can do, I've got a friend who makes a living photographing them!

 

[owd git]

P.s. If your a topless female model your more than welcome to sunbathe in my yard.

But Alex, you live in the frozen norf, there's no sunbathing to be had there...  :tease:

Almoast as unlikely as sunbathing in Wales, Eh? more likely to rust in the 'Liquid sunshine' the valleys are famed for.   
O. G.

 

[David Rose]

Nig says: "The point that David is trying to make is that if you can walk to the entrance (NOT through Duncan's garden!) then you should be able to go down the cave. Understand?"

He is right. That is what I'm trying to say.

But I also think we should be doing all we can to restore access to Carno, and to other caves which do not lie on CROW land. And just maybe we should be a little more publicly vociferous about it, and question the reasons advanced in certain cases for closure. 

 

[Alex]

P.s. I meant david in my post sorry.

 

[Ian Adams]

...... and question the reasons advanced in certain cases for closure.

.... How about adding "and controlled" ?



Ian

 

[SpeleoTrog]

Jackalpup, you seem to have a real issue with clubs negotiating access and managing on behalf of the land owners. Who would you suggest does it instead?

 

[Ian Adams]

David did say "in certain cases" ....

I do have an issue with ?some? bodies (clubs or otherwise) with the manner in which they go about approaching the landowner with their own agenda which isn?t necessarily in the interests of cavers per se, where they (the clubs or otherwise) hoodwink (or otherwise mislead a landowner) into accepting or believing that ?this is what they (the landowner) actually wants? (in other words, they basically tell the landowner what he/she wants) and then adopt either a unnecessary, over the top or Gestapo style policing policy to protect their own interests (which neither reflects what the landowner would have consented to or what cavers (in general) would benefit from).

Of course, I accept this does not happen all the time ? neither will I purport to know what percentage of the time it happens (but I do know it happens). I also accept that, in some instances, negotiations with landowners can be fragile and we (as cavers) have to jump through some hoops to appease a landowner however reasonable or unreasonable we may believe those hoops to be.

Ian

 

[droid]

You wouldn't be generalising from a specific event here, would you Ian? :-\

 

[Rhys]

...Gestapo style policing...

[gmod]Ok Jackalpup/Ian, I think that's enough of your wild rantings. None of this is directly related to Ogof Carno/Carno Adit. If you wish to start your own thread on access control generally, please do. Try to keep this one on topic if you can.[/gmod]

 

[Rhys]

[gmod]I've set up a thread for non-Carno access chat here:

http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=14948.0[/gmod]

 

[bograt]

A well considered moderation, thanks, Rhys.

 

[Ian Adams]

A well considered moderation, thanks, Rhys.

Why? Hit a raw nerve did it ?

There have been no "wild rantings" and my post was on topic.

Personally I thought it was wholly un-necessary for any moderation.

Ian

 

[Rhys]

Ian

Please re-familiarise yourself with the forum guidelines:
http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=1872.0

Specifically:

What is a bannable offence?
"Arguing with moderator's decisions on the public forum. Feel free to contact the mod team if you disagree with a decision but do it privately. If you're banned then use the email contact form."

 

[Martin Laverty]

Wow, I hit some nerves here!

The Cambrian Caving Council access page has now been updated to say "Access to Carno Adit is no longer available."; this has still not justified an entry on the Latest News or Latest Access Info pages though. If you go and look you will see that the website look and feel has been given an update (but it could improve further with lessons from the new CNCC site)

mikem was probably correct to say that "a simple statement along the lines of <<Closed whilst A465 roadworks are ongoing>> would have avoided this whole inflammatory discussion." Thanks to manrabbit and PMN1 for their accounts, even if they obfuscated over the - frankly risible - fear of "terrorists disguised as cavers blowing up the reservoir" line that has apparently been translated as "health and safety" (of Ebbw Vale).

We must hope for sanity to prevail and wish CCC luck in their ongoing negotiations now that the Brynmawr diggers appear to have bowed out, and look forward to a Bill Gascoigne Memorial access agreement to this major cave system (and to see it documented at http://www.ogof.org.uk/...)

 

[bograt]

Here, Here!!

 

[SpeleoTrog]

The terrorist risk has something in it - an bomb in the reservoir could flood Ebbw Vale causing millions of pounds worth of improvements!

 

[Duncan Price]

I'm quite frankly disappointed that no-one wants to go sunbathing in my garden - but there again it does face north and is not much of a sun trap.  The point I was trying to make, is that some cavers think they have a God given right to visit any cave they like in spite of the landowner's wishes.  This is perhaps better addressed under the CROW debate (and as far as that goes - it seems stupid not to allow caving).

Getting back to Ogof Carno - and suspension of access whilst the A365 works take place.  That's all it appears to be and other cave entrances will be affected when the work moves to the last stretch down the Clydach.  In the past access was only available through Brymawr Caving Club who inherited access from Bill Gascoine.  This was recently relaxed so that keys were available to other caving clubs etc.  I trust CCC will keep a watch on the situation and continue to lobby WW for access so that once the road improvements are done they can have no excuse to maintain a ban.

Unfortunately my dealings with such bodies have demonstrated that it is easier for them to say "no" rather than "yes".