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Access lost to Ogof Carno

According to the latest Descent (230), Welsh water have now removed access permission to this cave, citing 'health and safety', and old keyholders have returned their keys.

The Cambrian Caving Council has had nothing to say about this on its web site yet, so can we expect an explanation and an update to its access page soon?

At the very least, I hope to see something in the minutes of its forthcoming meeting decrying the loss of access to three significant Welsh caves in as many years, while the Dales, Mendip, and Derbyshire all seem to progress happily....
[gmod]Split from Ogof Carno? Topic at a User's request as this deserves its own thread[/gmod]

 

adrian paniwnyk

New member
The bit I was involved in the exploration of in the 90's at the far end of Car Crusher North-at the top of Space Oddity pitch-was a nice bit of spacious passage, with black limestone, formations at the end a bit, like I dare say DanyrOgof! There are also areas for original exploration including a large undived -not in the index- sump at the start at of Car Crusher North.   
  Although I have not been Carno in recent years, it is a big pity access has been withdrawn. 
 

NigR

New member
Interesting to see that this is already causing gremlins on the forum!

Make no mistake, there are those who think this should not be openly discussed in public.

Be careful, Martin - the Men in Black may soon be knocking at your door!

[mod]The original topic was split in the wrong place. I've now fixed it.[/mod]
 

David Rose

Active member
I think it is an absolute disgrace that access has been lost to a major system such as this. Does anyone agree with me that cavers collectively should be trying to mount some kind of campaign to get it restored - not only to Carno but to other affected caves, both in Wales and other areas? I mean, the right to roam was hard won on the surface. Should it not also exist underground?
 

Les W

Active member
David Rose said:
I mean, the right to roam was hard won on the surface. Should it not also exist underground?

can-of-worms-thumb18123327.jpg
 

graham

New member
David Rose said:
I think it is an absolute disgrace that access has been lost to a major system such as this. Does anyone agree with me that cavers collectively should be trying to mount some kind of campaign to get it restored - not only to Carno but to other affected caves, both in Wales and other areas? I mean, the right to roam was hard won on the surface. Should it not also exist underground?

At the expense of repeating myself on this topic, one thing that a 'right to roam' underground would lose us would be the permission to start absolutely any more surface digs. What landowner is going to allow that if, at the end of the day, it is going to lead to him losing the ability to control who comes onto his land?

I'll give another example:

One of the caves that I help administer the access for is in the middle of a housing estate. It was shut in 1963 after an incident involving some local children. It reopened in 1993 after I had spent 10 years in quiet negotiations. If access to that site was now to be regarded as a 'right' then who does that right apply to? Me? cavers? everybody? Give me a legal definition (because it is the law that you are talking about) of 'cavers' that would give 'us' the right to enter but would exclude the local kids. I can think of one, it involves certificates of competence, do you want to go there? Other than that, the landowner would just think that concrete was the simplest (and safest) answer.

I do wish that people would think through the consequences of these things before spouting off.
 
I do wish that people would think through the consequences of these things before spouting off.

Indeed...heaven forbid cavers should actually be passionate about and/or and vocalise a desire for freer/easier access to caves ;)
 

graham

New member
jasonbirder said:
I do wish that people would think through the consequences of these things before spouting off.

Indeed...heaven forbid cavers should actually be passionate about and/or and vocalise a desire for freer/easier access to caves ;)

Passion is fine, it's thoughtless stupidity that gets on my tits.
 

Rhys

Moderator
David Rose said:
I think it is an absolute disgrace that access has been lost to a major system such as this. Does anyone agree with me that cavers collectively should be trying to mount some kind of campaign to get it restored - not only to Carno but to other affected caves, both in Wales and other areas? I mean, the right to roam was hard won on the surface. Should it not also exist underground?

Talk of "right to roam" with respect to Ogof Carno is pretty irrelevant. The cave is accessed via a mile-long manmade water board tunnel (Carno Adit), the entrance to which is on enclosed, non-open access land.

Rhys
 

Alex

Well-known member
In that case this cave should be just locked with the useual key system for the area, I cannot see why they should block access entirely! So I agree with the earlier posters a fuss should be made. (That was how the walkers got the right to roam act it worked for them, yes I know Graham the arugment is a little more complex, but do any of us believe that removing access entirely should not be fought against? Conservation? pah whats the point of protecting formations if no one can ever see them?
 

graham

New member
Alex said:
... yes I know Graham the argument is a little more complex, but do any of us believe that removing access entirely should not be fought against?

Did you not read the bit in my post where I spent 10 years negotiating access to cave that had been locked for some more decades before that?

Fighting is rubbish, now winning, there's the thing.
 

NigR

New member
David Rose said:
I think it is an absolute disgrace that access has been lost to a major system such as this. Does anyone agree with me that cavers collectively should be trying to mount some kind of campaign to get it restored - not only to Carno but to other affected caves, both in Wales and other areas? I mean, the right to roam was hard won on the surface. Should it not also exist underground?

A fine post, David. I share your sentiments.

Rhys said:
Talk of "right to roam" with respect to Ogof Carno is pretty irrelevant. The cave is accessed via a mile-long manmade water board tunnel (Carno Adit), the entrance to which is on enclosed, non-open access land.

Unfortunately, Rhys is entirely correct.

graham said:
Other than that, the landowner would just think that concrete was the simplest (and safest) answer.

Here we go, Graham's twin passions - concrete and landowners - coming to the fore yet again!

graham said:
Fighting is rubbish, now winning, there's the thing.

Agreed.

I shall have more to say about the current Carno situation later. If I do not return it can be safely assumed that those who would prefer us to remain silent have had their way and I have joined the ranks of the Disappeared!




 

manrabbit

Member
OK. Current situation on access to Carno Adit.

New A465 is being built right on top of the entrance to the adit, hence the water board taking an interest and requesting a meeting between Brynmawr CC and some of their people. I won't go into the details of that meeting on here, as I wasn't present.

The immediate issue with access is that the road contractors are working on the site of the entrance, a meeting has taken place between BCC and Costains and we have been informed that an extension to the adit is to be constructed so access will not physically be lost.

Negotiations are ongoing with Welsh water with regard to future access, it's likely to take a while as the construction at the site isn't going to be complete for a couple of years.

Huw
 

Ship-badger

Member
Thanks Huw, that sounds reasonably promising (or should that be reasonable and promising?).
Time will tell, but hopefully access will be restored once road building is finished.
 

mikem

Well-known member
Not sure why that hasn't already been published on the CCC website, a simple statement along the lines of
<<Closed whilst A465 roadworks are ongoing>> would have avoided this whole inflammatory discussion.
Thanks for posting.
Mike
 

NigR

New member
manrabbit said:
OK. Current situation on access to Carno Adit.

New A465 is being built right on top of the entrance to the adit, hence the water board taking an interest and requesting a meeting between Brynmawr CC and some of their people. I won't go into the details of that meeting on here, as I wasn't present.

The immediate issue with access is that the road contractors are working on the site of the entrance, a meeting has taken place between BCC and Costains and we have been informed that an extension to the adit is to be constructed so access will not physically be lost.

Negotiations are ongoing with Welsh water with regard to future access, it's likely to take a while as the construction at the site isn't going to be complete for a couple of years.

Huw

Some of this tallies with what I have been told but an awful lot is left unsaid.

Is that really you, Huw or have you been got at (replaced even)?

 

manrabbit

Member
It is still me Nig :)

Your right, there are some things that I haven't mentioned regarding concerns that WW have, I wasn't at the meetings with WW so don't feel it's my place to talk about them on a public forum. With the road building taking so long to complete I think we have plenty of time to iron out the concerns that WW have so we gain access to the nice new shinny entrance when the contractors build it.
 

NigR

New member
mikem said:
Not sure why that hasn't already been published on the CCC website, a simple statement along the lines of <<Closed whilst A465 roadworks are ongoing>> would have avoided this whole inflammatory discussion.

Probably because it isn't the whole truth.
 
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