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Alum Pot, Long Churns etc.
- Thread starter kay
- Start date
Dont cut the rope
Member
Descending alum pot in a wedding dress will be hard but good for them 
kay
Well-known member
Sadly, it seems to be a non-caving wedding - the marquees are already out in the field.Descending alum pot in a wedding dress will be hard but good for them
cavingbiker
Active member
Find it hard to believe wedding limousines negotiating the potholes, let alone the modern Chelsea Tractors.
asheshouse
Member
Ought to provide parking in the field, not in the lane.
kay
Well-known member
One day isn't a big deal, but for the sake of accuracy, from what I'm told, it's not a private lane. (The fee is for crossing the fields, not for access to the lane).
The North Yorkshire RoW map shows there are public vehicular rights as far as the Alum Pot gateway/stile.
maps.northyorks.gov.uk
There is a standard road sign at this point forbidding further public access to vehicles
www.geograph.org.uk
The continuance is subject to a TRO
It is part of an ancient way from Clapham to Selside, possibly further afield.
uwfs.org.uk
Spectrum Spatial Analyst
maps.northyorks.gov.uk
There is a standard road sign at this point forbidding further public access to vehicles
The same old problem when a farm track... © John Haynes cc-by-sa/2.0
The track back to the road was "other route with public access" and so many motorised people seem to take that as an invitation to go anywhere at the end of the road.
The continuance is subject to a TRO
It is part of an ancient way from Clapham to Selside, possibly further afield.
The Lancaster to Newcastle Coach Road, 1771. - Upper Wharfedale Field Society
the-lancaster-to-newcastle-coach-road-1771
uwfs.org.uk
andrewmcleod
Well-known member
It is also not an offence to drive a motor vehicle within 15 yards of a highway in order to park (whereas driving a motor vehicle onto private land without permission is an offence I think). However, that doesn't mean you are _allowed_ to park there, just that you are only committing trespass and not a criminal offence.
This is, I presume, why when people drive off the road and park on your driveway, they are only committing trespass (which means the police usually won't care) and not an offence (and all you can technically do is sue them I think?).
PS the North Yorkshire mapping website shows that the Alum Pot lane to Long Lane route is a 'privately maintained highway' along which there is probably an assumed right of public access (noting as already stated the traffic regulation order from beyond the gate - plus that there is a footpath along most of it which I think extinguishes vehicular rights anyway post some recentish bit of legislation?). By comparison, the ford across the Kingsdale Beck is 'just' a public road, maintainable at public expense and just as much a 'road' as any other road. Turbary Road is also a public road, albeit with a traffic regulation order beyond Jingling and with uncertainty about the actual route beyond there anyway ('route unclear' in the notes). The road to Crummack Farm is both a privately maintained highway _and_ a bridleway, so I don't know if the latter overrides the former...
Rights of way are a wonderful rabbit hole
This is, I presume, why when people drive off the road and park on your driveway, they are only committing trespass (which means the police usually won't care) and not an offence (and all you can technically do is sue them I think?).
PS the North Yorkshire mapping website shows that the Alum Pot lane to Long Lane route is a 'privately maintained highway' along which there is probably an assumed right of public access (noting as already stated the traffic regulation order from beyond the gate - plus that there is a footpath along most of it which I think extinguishes vehicular rights anyway post some recentish bit of legislation?). By comparison, the ford across the Kingsdale Beck is 'just' a public road, maintainable at public expense and just as much a 'road' as any other road. Turbary Road is also a public road, albeit with a traffic regulation order beyond Jingling and with uncertainty about the actual route beyond there anyway ('route unclear' in the notes). The road to Crummack Farm is both a privately maintained highway _and_ a bridleway, so I don't know if the latter overrides the former...
Rights of way are a wonderful rabbit hole
andrewmcleod
Well-known member
Natural Environment and Rural Communities Act 2006
An Act to make provision about bodies concerned with the natural environment and rural communities; to make provision in connection with wildlife, sites of special scientific interest, National Parks and the Broads; to amend the law relating to rights of way; to make provision as to the Inland...
So apparently an _unrecorded_ vehicular right of access would have been extinguished in 2006 if recorded only as a footpath, bridleway or restricted byway, but not if it was _mostly_ used by cars, was a publicly-maintainable road, or its means of legal creation explicitly made it for vehicles (?), or it got added to the map last-minute, or a person who needed it for vehicular access made an application (although that only makes it a _private_ right of way).
But since the 'privately maintained highway' is presumably marked on the definitive map, and 'highway' implies a likely right of way, maybe there is a right to drive up to Crummack Farm (past the small 'no vehicles' sign on the bridleway post and up to the big 'NO VEHICLES' red circle sign)?
And indeed potentially beyond, as there is no TRO until you reach the Long Lane-Selside bit. Also, there is no traffic regulation order for Thwaite Lane from Austwick and through the tunnels to Clapham... All depends on the vagaries of the right of access on the 'privately maintained highways' and what the definitive map says etc...
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privately maintained highway - is actually a ratione tenurae rather than an unadopted road
chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.bywaysandbridlewaystrust.org.uk/seymour/ratione_tenurae_obligation.pdf
Somewhere I have them and all the unclassified roads in NY marked on maps - pre 2006 changes and digitally available maps. A day spent in County Hall
chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.bywaysandbridlewaystrust.org.uk/seymour/ratione_tenurae_obligation.pdf
Somewhere I have them and all the unclassified roads in NY marked on maps - pre 2006 changes and digitally available maps. A day spent in County Hall
Not that I'm aware of - I meant only that it would be reasonable to turn up and expect to drive your vehicle along as far as the Alum Pot gate, not that we should all be able to drive up and park whenever and wherever we want and sod everyone else.
On the contrary, blocking a public road (say by parking a vehicle so others cannot pass) is normally a naughty no-no. Whether wedding guest or caver. Since you can't know what vehicle other users may wish to pass with (thinking tractor here), you can't know when parking whether your obstruction is appropriate.
If we looked at it another way, if cavers had put out little signs saying 'parking spot reserved because I'm doing Alum tomorrow' would wedding guests or any other members of the public be obliged to concede? What about 'reserved because I'm doing Meregill', reserved cos three peaks, reserved cos shopping.
Is there a point when one person's needs trump another's?
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