• Hello From Descent

    The publication date for issue 289 is the 10th of December, meaning subscribers should receive their copies during the week leading up to that date. It is also available from caving suppliers such as Inglesport and Starless River, or from our new website

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An interesting, although fairly loose parallel to the Open Access Caving debate

Are fans of access to the outdoors for the masses wanting to apply that ethos everywhere? If a caving club can negotiate access to private land to enter a cave, then why is it fair that that access is just for cavers? Shouldn't dog-walkers, ramblers and families wanting picnics share that access that cavers have just for themselves? Would cavers support wider access for others to share?

I'm waiting to see if anyone on here starts the call to remove all gates and keys from cave entrances, and asks for a less snowflake attitude to litter, graffiti and damage to cave "pretties".

I'm not anti swimming, etc. I wild swim and open swim myself. This group state that they have access to another reservoir nearby. That one is an SSSI and has issues with too many visitors. I just think it might be an idea to sort out the issues with existing places before descending on other unspoilt sites and demanding they be turned into " public beaches". Not forgetting that the area about Kinder Reservoir itself is already having issues with too great a footfall, erosion, etc, and work is being done to restore the natural habitats there.
 

2xw

Active member
I've pulled an argument from betwixt my buttocks and none of you are qualified to correct it

Are fans of access to the outdoors for the masses wanting to apply that ethos everywhere? If a caving club can negotiate access to private land to enter a cave, then why is it fair that that access is just for cavers? Shouldn't dog-walkers, ramblers and families wanting picnics share that access that cavers have just for themselves? Would cavers support wider access for others to share?

I'm waiting to see if anyone on here starts the call to remove all gates and keys from cave entrances, and asks for a less snowflake attitude to litter, graffiti and damage to cave "pretties".

I'm not anti swimming, etc. I wild swim and open swim myself. This group state that they have access to another reservoir nearby. That one is an SSSI and has issues with too many visitors. I just think it might be an idea to sort out the issues with existing places before descending on other unspoilt sites and demanding they be turned into " public beaches". Not forgetting that the area about Kinder Reservoir itself is already having issues with too great a footfall, erosion, etc, and work is being done to restore the natural habitats there.

The hysteria here is misplaced. You're acting as if the problems of erosion and littering are entirely new and unprecedented - they've always occured (Victorian hikers wiped out entire species!) And vandalism to caves (of which gates are a part) has principally been done by cavers not dog walkers having picnics in Basecamp chamber

There isn't any unspoilt sites in the UK and it's environmentally naive to think that. Kinder reservoir is littered with the remains of the railways and huts of navies that built it - do you really think that there are no alternatives to the issues of litter and erosion other than restricting access? I presume you have already restricted yourself.
 
I have clearly not restricted myself. I wild swim, open swim and explore the countryside. My point is it's not reasonable to demand everywhere there is water should be turned into a beach.

I have also not claimed Kinder is unspoilt. It's a man made reservoir! The wetlands where I do work were once industrial and are now places where wildlife is encouraged to return. There are also riverbanks that have been trampled so much that the ground is compacted and no plants now grow there.

If you want to enter places, do so and leave them unspoilt.

You seem to have sidestepped the comparison I drew with caving access BTW. 😆
 

David Rose

Active member
There is a choice here. Banning access to the countryside or trying to educate the small minority who, allegedly, leave poo in plastic cups on the path up Snowdon. It worries me that so many contributors to this thread appear to think that restrictions are the answer. Not for the first time, I'm with Badlad.
 
Who on this thread is asking for banning or restrictions on anyone? The point is being made to OPEN reservoirs for certain groups. This is a direct copy of the model cavers use to access caves on problem land.
 

mikem

Well-known member
topcat - indeed, but Scotland has less than 1/10th of our population in 1/3rd of the land area...
 

mikem

Well-known member
Is it not the case that in British Law everything that is not specifically and explicitly recorded as being disallowed is therefore, tacitly, allowed? This being the case (presuming it is) then does it not follow that, with regard to access legislation, unless caving is listed as being prohibited it therefore is tacitly AOK?
Not exactly, we still (sort of) work on the principle of whether it's "in the spirit of the law"
 
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