Bagshawe streamway - another inlet?

[RichardB1983]

I was in Bagshawe cavern the other day, and we followed the upper main passage past the Hippodrome, and then down the Blackpool Sands and through the muddy crawl to the stream passage. Water levels were fairly low compared to what I've seen on a previous visit. It was only because I was filming that I noticed afterwards that there seemed to be much more water coming out of the resurgence, than the amount of water visible in the stream near the Hippodrome.

Video here if anyone is interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibRWhlZznpE

The stream passage is visible at 5:48, and the resurgence at 6:03. The two videos were only a couple of hours apart and there hadn't been much change in the weather for a couple of days.

So the question: is there another inlet supplying a lot of water between the visible stream in Bagshawe & the resurgence - or have I been fooled by the shape of the outlet at the resurgence making it appear to be much more water there than in the cave? Apologies if this has been asked before.

 

[Pitlamp]

I know less about the Bradwell catchment than I do about the Peak Cavern system but there's certainly a tested hydrological branch coming from the Duce / Dowse Hole area, which I don't think goes via Bagshawe Cavern. Isn't this supposed to be what's thought is responsible for a load of water ponding in Walker's Grotto in wet conditions? Reckon the latter would make a good dig. It's not a one weekend wonder - probably quite a big job. The main hurdle might be sorting the various permissions (as, traditionally, cavers haven't been made welcome).

If things could be sorted, Walker's Grotto might be a good target for any future Peaks expedition?

I certainly agree about a notable difference in the flows between the Bagshawe streamway and what sometimes roars out of the resurgence in the village.

 

[Cave_Troll]

as you go up the resurgence stream a fair amount of water comes in through the wall on the left doesnt it...

 

[SamT]

Almost certainly,  and some more targeted dye testing is something that's been on my back burner for some time (as discussed at the Bradwell Symposium)

Its most likely going to be from the streamway that runs under the glory hole (that lies beneath the underwater choke and as seen by Simon Brooks).

Also - all though there is no real documentary evidence, its possible that there is input from a sough that drains moss rake, somewhere around the area of the resurgence.  To my mind, the co-op sough that can be seen opposite the road, that runs under the playing field, issues very little water, and that its probable that water now joins the stream at the resurgence instead.

 

[RichardB1983]

Cheers for the replies. Seems I wasn't just imagining it then.

I also had a brief look at, but didn't video, the Springfields resurgence on the way back: the one that looks like it's been landscaped into a garden feature with park benches round it. There was quite a bit of water coming out here: perhaps almost as much as seen in Bagshawe streamway. Has it been worked out where the source of this water is? Is it a mine sough as well?

 

[alastairgott]

I'm afraid it could well be a bonifide spring, the geology doesn't seem right for anything else, as its in shale bedrock http://mapapps.bgs.ac.uk/geologyofbritain/home.html?

Although i could be wrong, the limestone does dip, so it could be a resurgence for something bubbling up through the shale.

Bagshaw is laid out on a mostly NE-SW plain, whereas most of the veins are either on a ENE-WSW plain or some at right angles, on SES-NWN

You would effectively be looking for evidence of a vein running from outlands head down to the sunday school (north of junction hugh lane and smithy hill) and this vein would have to continue across the road to the spring.

 

[AR]

I suspect it could be a mine sough, but if so it'll have a long tail bolt, probably heading in the direction of the cement works. It's a fine candidate for investigation with GPR....

 

[alastairgott]

So you're thinking of a vein following cresswellpart lane past the Bowling Green pub and presumably with the Long tail bolt in an Easterly Direction under Batham Gate (Gore Lane)

 

[SamT]

actually, (probably) both.

Bagshawe streamway (beyond the hippodrome) was dye tested to springfields in very very low water conditions, i.e. when the resurgence had all but stopped flowing.

However, there is also the streamway that can be heard below a manhole/drain cover at 'listenawhile' corner.  (caveat - I've never personally heard this) just heard about it from others) which I believe is opposite the old petrol station somewhere at the bottom of Hugh Lane.  Its possible that this is a sough related to moorfurlong, though they are relatively shallow pipe workings so I've always been a bit dubious about a sough there. (i.e. re tales of a sough under a shaft in the graveyard at the old methodist chapel). 

If you project the line of the resurgence at spring fields - it heads up to Moss Rake at Outlands head (via listenawhile corner) which seems more likely.

 

[pwhole]

Nigel Ball and Tony Marsden know a lot of stuff about this area, so they may be worth consulting, especially on the Springfield resurgence. It wouldn't surprise me though if this were natural drainage from Moss Rake. Nunlowend Sough drained Long Rake, which is not far north and more or less parallel, and, merged with the flow from Kronstadt Sough, crosses under the road at Brough House. So another outlet between Nunlowend and Bagshawe, natural or manmade, and draining either vein, could well be possible.

I don't think much work has ever been done dye-tracing Moss Rake or Long Rake. Partly as there are no obvious water-flows in the mines higher up the vein apart from Rake Head, and that funny waterfall in the shaft. That could be tested, but requires sneaking around, which may not be a good idea at present - as also discussed at Bradwell Symposium! The main working areas and natural caverns in the Moss Rake mines line up with the main beddings in Peak-Speedwell, so it may be possible to infer a resurgence from the dip of the beddings and the intersection of the vein cavities, but I don't have the time or knowledge for that. There is also the 'Moss Rake Sink', at the road junction entrance to Sidebottom's quarry and Hallam's Venture mine, but I have no idea what kind of 'sink' it is.

There is a place nearer the village that could be a candidate for a 'general' test, as it's on the downstream line of Moorfurlong, but that's a dirty surface hole, and very much private, so may not be much use. But I could ask, as a tap wouldn't be far away!

Also, what about leakage from Pictor End Sough? Is that possible?

 

[RichardB1983]

Sorry for digging up an older thread:
We returned to Bagshawe with another group at the weekend. It was fairly obvious that there had been a bit of a flood recently - with deep puddles of standing water near the Cave of Worms - and other parts that were completely dry on a few recent visits now at least a foot under water. The little crawling passage under the Cave of Worms area was sumped. The deep puddle of water just before you get to the Hippodrome was much deeper than I've seen it before.

Despite this, the little duck to get to the streamway beyond the Hippodrome was, if anything, lower than I've seen it before. On my very first trip in there - the duck was sumped, so the water level can obviously rise quite a bit in here - yet it was not deep at all.

Does this mean that the water seen on the top level in a flood comes from some other inlet, rather than the main stream rising. The Glory Hole sump perhaps? Does anyone know?

 

[SamT]

No, the water definitely rises up from the main stream way (I've watched it), then overflows into the hippodrome and freely runs down to the dungeon. 

I've never seen it pushing up the glory hole and the assumption is that it only pushes all the way up the glory hole and into the hippodrome in very extreme flood conditions.

The pool/duck down at the bottom of the blackpool sands fills from the drippers on the right and drains naturally through seepage in its base.

It could be that after a major flood, the pressure of the water has cleared the drain a little, which over time will become slowly blocked with silt again.  (that's just my theory though).

 

[RichardB1983]

Thanks. I assumed the water must have come from the stream-way but the level in the pool/duck seemed so low! On my first visit there I think we must have arrived almost straight after the flood event as there was still a significant flow on the top level into the Dungeon. Perhaps water levels in the stream itself hadn't returned completely to normal and that was keeping the duck sumped. We didn't go through to find out. At the weekend, the stream was quite fast but no higher than normal and there must have been enough time for the pool to return to normal depth by the time we got there.