whitelackington
New member
It would be nice to see the C.S.C.C. "P"bolt this through trip
Bath Swallet and Rods Pot connected
- Thread starter Andy Sparrow
- Start date
Peter Burgess
New member
Why? Is it not possible to explore it without P-bolts?
Peter Burgess
New member
We'll have people asking for a lift to be installed next.
whitelackington
New member
Peter Burgess said:
That is a pathetic comment Peter.
I have done it twice, both times without "P" bolts.
"P" bolts would make the trip safer.
Peter Burgess
New member
Reduce the risk and devalue the caving experience? Discuss.
cap n chris
Well-known member
ian.p said:
In the same way that the bolts/naturals at Swildon's 20 can be rigged - but rarely are - over and beyond the 3 p-bolts already in situ, despite which cavers routinely persist in rigging solely off a single bolt.
I've already mentioned Rods'/Bath as a topic for CSCC bolting on the grounds that it's getting a lot more traffic than the original diggers' bolts were expected to cope with but, as a non-proliferation consideration, I personally guess the decision would be one of "replace if necessary" not "replace pre-emptively".
whitelackington
New member
At the moment Purple Pot is rigged of a bar, rammed in the mud, "P" bolts would be better.Peter Burgess said:Reduce the risk and devalue the caving experience? Discuss.
Anyway if it is not suitable to rig a through trip with "P" bolts what is the purpose of "P" bolts?
cap n chris
Well-known member
The main purpose of p-bolts is to serve as discussion topics, a function they fulfill eminently well.
cap n chris
Well-known member
whitelackington said:
Forgive the paraphrase, but...
At the moment September Rift (in MFS) is rigged off a scaffold bar, balanced on rock ledges, "P" bolts would be better.
... Maybe, but "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" seems to be the debate you need to address, not one of whether p-bolts are better than what's already in situ.
Andy Sparrow
Active member
whitelackington said:At the moment Purple Pot is rigged of a bar, rammed in the mud, "P" bolts would be better.Peter Burgess said:Reduce the risk and devalue the caving experience? Discuss.
Anyway if it is not suitable to rig a through trip with "P" bolts what is the purpose of "P" bolts?
I object to that! It's a very fine and substantial steel bar and is securely placed. Yes, P-bolts would be better in the longer term, for Purple Pot and for the Bath Swallet pitches, but there is no urgent need.
whitelackington
New member
Graham,graham said:
have you done it without tackle?
Andy Sparrow
Active member
whitelackington said:
The Bath Swallet pitches are easily free-climbed by confident cavers but the majority of visiting groups are going to be using tackle. The current bolts are, I'm sure, entirely safe but they are not ideally positioned. The bolts are set too low for my liking and I have found it necessary to improvise natural belays in order to rig a lifeline system. If the cave were to be P-bolted I would place the new anchors about 2 metres higher than the 'curtain rings'. P-bolts in these positions could also be used for pull-through (assuming Purple Pot is pre-rigged). Rods/Bath is a great little trip for intermediate novices and is bound to be popular with scouts and similar groups. A great feature of the cave is the opportunity to use abseil, ladder and lifeline, or top-rope freeclimbing techniques but this is a bit compromised currently by the anchor positions. This, to my mind, is the stongest argument for the placement of new anchors.
pete h
New member
The bolts on Shower Pot were NOT intended for general use but installed for the diggers to access the lower reaches.
Also when they were installed the pitch head was completely different, being a horizontal squeeze while fumbling with your foot to find a rung of the ladder, bolts higher up would have made the slot impossible to get back up through as the ladder would be streached right across the hole.
The pitch head was enlarged to make it safer, easier and big enough to lower bags of sand to the lower digs, not for cavers to do through trips.
If the CSCC think it warrants new bolts i don't have a problem with it but the diggers have been happy for over three years using what is there.
BTW there are a lot of bolts i consider to be not ideally placed, mainly because the people installing them are over 6 feet tall and being a dwarf i cant reach the bloody things. (But that doesn't mean they are unsafe)
Also when they were installed the pitch head was completely different, being a horizontal squeeze while fumbling with your foot to find a rung of the ladder, bolts higher up would have made the slot impossible to get back up through as the ladder would be streached right across the hole.
The pitch head was enlarged to make it safer, easier and big enough to lower bags of sand to the lower digs, not for cavers to do through trips.
If the CSCC think it warrants new bolts i don't have a problem with it but the diggers have been happy for over three years using what is there.
BTW there are a lot of bolts i consider to be not ideally placed, mainly because the people installing them are over 6 feet tall and being a dwarf i cant reach the bloody things. (But that doesn't mean they are unsafe)
Aubrey
Member
Andy said "The Bath Swallet pitches are easily free-climbed by confident cavers.... " I would add "with long legs going upwards in dry conditions".
Shower Pot was VERY wet last week & I doubt anyone would have wanted to free climb it. It was impossible to look upwards through the water in places.
The bolts are positioned in the ideal place for using ladders. We use a short tape sling as a handhold between the two bolts on the top pitch, thus overcoming the problem of the ladder getting pulled into the narrow slot. Hundreds of digging trips have proved the bolts to be well positioned.
We built the "platform" ledge at the top of the pitch to use the ladders as we currently hang them. If a lot of people are climbing up the other side of the big boulder it may be necessary to add some more walling or support to ensure long term safety. Anyone adding anchors should consider this.
I do agree that one or two additional anchors could be useful for lifelining but would not want to see the existing bolts moved.
Shower Pot was VERY wet last week & I doubt anyone would have wanted to free climb it. It was impossible to look upwards through the water in places.
The bolts are positioned in the ideal place for using ladders. We use a short tape sling as a handhold between the two bolts on the top pitch, thus overcoming the problem of the ladder getting pulled into the narrow slot. Hundreds of digging trips have proved the bolts to be well positioned.
We built the "platform" ledge at the top of the pitch to use the ladders as we currently hang them. If a lot of people are climbing up the other side of the big boulder it may be necessary to add some more walling or support to ensure long term safety. Anyone adding anchors should consider this.
I do agree that one or two additional anchors could be useful for lifelining but would not want to see the existing bolts moved.
cap n chris
Well-known member
Andy Sparrow said:
I'm trying to think how a trip leader would organise group members (assuming it was more than, say, three) for the approach climb to Shower Pot pitch. Pitch head lining would be necessary, I reckon, but I don't think the rope would be easily returned to the base for the next climber. It doesn't seem suitable for group use to me - experienced capable individuals, maybe, but not reliant trusting members of an outdoor pursuits type organisation.
Andy Sparrow
Active member
cap 'n chris said:
Rachel and I have very successfully taken a group of 7 intermediates on this trip. The group were lifelined up the lower section of Shower Pot by Rachel while I lifelined the upper section. The problem of lifeline return was already anticipated and was avoided by using pull-back - by the climber clipping into the middle of the rope - a technique that will be familiar to many of you even it is omitted from the CIC curriculum.
